Okay first before I begin I just want to say I think there are a lot of people opposed to change that are just going to blindly support anything anti-zoom because they are resistant to any change. I'm not really here to convince anyone because I already know zoom is very likely to happen, but I am posting to help people that want to understand why these changes will happen and why they arent necessarily a bad thing. Again, I don't really profit directly if zoom is introduced or not so I have no ulterior motives. But again I would say by the start of 2014, the majority of mttsngs offered will likely be zoom.
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Hey TT, thanks for replying
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Originally Posted by TeamTrousers
What matters most for realising your long term tournament expectation is actually games/time. And if you can only play a quarter of your usual number of tables simultaneously then you simply won't get through as many games in a session/week/month.
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Originally Posted by TT
[paraphrased] Also, near the money, there wont be enough players in the pool to play the tournament out as a zoom tourney.
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Originally Posted by TT
2 minute levels? Lol, cool story bro. [...] (Hyperturbo mttsngs bombed.)
What I was referring to is the same thing: with zoom you will be playing more tournaments in the same amount of time (if both tournaments offer equivalent structures.) This is because basically zoom tournaments are faster for the same amount of play. I'm not sure if people are totally understanding this, so I will elaborate below.
Suppose a tournament with 5 minute levels has X hands played per level. Because zoom is faster, you can play the same X hands in about 2 minutes, instead of 5 minutes. So if a tournament has its first hour converted to zoom, instead of the usual 12 levels * 5 minutes = 60 minutes, you can now complete that in 12 levels * 2 minutes = 24 minutes. If you usually bust in level 8 on average [median], then your time to bust goes from 40 minutes (8*5min) to 16 minutes (8*2min). So zoom tournaments can be offered much more compactly. When I said 2 minute levels, I meant with the exact same amount of play as normal tournaments, because zoom tournaments typically play 2.5 to 3 times as many hands.
Also, when ZOOM tournaments get offered, it would very likely change to a normal tournament after a certain number of levels/players anyways, because of the problem you describe (can't zoom after it gets down to N players because too slow.)
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Just because there's a fast fold button, it doesn't mean that people will use it properly; there would still be people stacking these, because they're too dumb to realise why that's not optimal, so when you're BB and you can't fast fold, that might be your only hand for this level, especially if you actually get dealt a playable hand in BB. And just as we're getting to the stage where the money becomes relevant it gets even worse because, with fast fold effectively redundant, the F2T will mainly be a test of your luckboxing abilities and the FT might as well be decided by drawing of lots instead of bothering with the tedious irrelevance of the running the cards out.
This won't be the case, first its likely that the 600/1200 level and onwards would be played out as a normal tournament, and/or when down to 27 players it would be played normally, like I said above. Also, zoom in general forces people to act quicker, so you won't have one hand per level if everyone is stacking because they will time out, and the other players at the table don't have to wait for that timeout for them to quickfold. And honestly I don't think it could get any worse because currently I've seen 180 HHs where people are playing 2 hands in the first level of a 180 where there wasn't even very significant action.
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Using OPR, I've cast my eye over a couple of people's names I remember from FTP and looked at a few of their 135 man Rush poker SNG results. As you know, OPR records the runtime, and they were mainly finishing between 1hr 40min and 1hr 50min after they started, which is largely the same as the current 180man turbos. Rush is the historical benchmark we can measure against here, so if Zoom were to be introduced in anything like a similar fashion then if we're playing maybe only a third or a quarter of the games in the same amount of time, how is it an improvement to be excited about if you're grinder, when there isn't the obvious evidence of a corresponding 3fold or 4fold increase in expected ROI?
Obviously, players playing rush have more hands per hour, about 2.5x more. This is just a tomayytoes tomahhtoes argument I feel. Depending on the structure they go with, zoom tourneys are either going to provide more hands in the same amount of time, or it provides the same amount of hands in less time. Probably the latter. Either way its better.
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24 minutes? Once again, LOL.
Sry you misunderstood me the first time
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This is surely just pure opinion, and on this I'd flat out disagree. I think that stacking poker tables is far easier than tiling. It requires less head and eye movement, as all the info comes up in the same places every time it's your go, and it requires less hand and mouse movement because all the buttons are in the same places too. Plus, when tiling you have to be continually checking all tables to see if action is on you anywhere, whereas when you're stacking you know when it's action on you because buttons appear on the one table in front of you. Finally, when stacking you can get a bigger table on a much smaller monitor. Tiling requires large areas of screen space, and for is particularly challenging for those who play on a laptop. How many recreational players have grinding stations with twin 28" screens to enable them to tile a large number of tables?
I do both. Actually this is a very good point and maybe something that PS software crew can help with is, to queue up a zoom table both when you have the ability to fast fold at the beginning of the hand, and when it is your turn. So you can stack 8-9 tables.
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Originally Posted by TT
Stars obviously pay attention to regs' opinions because regs help massively with the process of turning deposits into rake. Without regs the process would not be fast enough. SNGs only go off as fast as they do because the majority of the field are multitabling regs.
Okay first, while PS does pay attention to regs, regs are more like a "natural phenomenon." Basically if you have a soft game, players will come. You can try to accomodate regs by helping to make it easier for them to multitable etc. but in the end like, its not like PS has to actively search for and advertise for regs -- they come very naturally, while fish are harder to find. So while its true that "stars pays attention to regs opinions", its only in the context that they listen to everyone. In the end they don't even need to cater specifically to regs because if a game is profitable people are going to play it.
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Originally Posted by TT
Please explain how reducing the number of games will help with this. Zoom will force regs, who are the driving force behind sitewide volume, into slashing table numbers, so I can't see how the number of games going off won't drop, because many randoms will still stick to a single table, not adding extra ones to compensate.
Basically, turnover is higher. So, you might be playing only 8 tables, but you bust much faster. Infact, the number of games going off will increase. Again, the easiest why zoom improves the situation, is to see that zoom is a device that can speed up how fast a tournament takes (wrt to play.. so what I mean is that a zoom tourney with the exact same # of hands as a normal tournament can finish much quicker.)
Also, to use your example, say random#1 plays 4 normal tables, and random#2 decides to play 1 zoom table, and join another game whenever he busts. I believe on average, by the time that random#1 is done his 4 tables, random#2 will have played more tables.
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Anyways, if anyone has any more questions I am happy to answer them, but basically I think its very clear that ZOOM tourneys will atleast be trialed, and after they prove to be more popular, there will be a gradual shift over the next year until the majority of regs are playing zoom. The MTTSNG economy is very big so during the transition period where both are offered, it is clear that both kinds of tourneys can be supported.
Again I ask that ppl don't "shoot the messenger", I am just saying what I am pretty sure will happen. And again this is only my opinion.