boycott away.
There does if they are not allowed in otherwise, i'd rather the option
of 10+2+R 180man than a $7R 90man that never runs.
At least I'm offering some kind of compromise; pokerstars are offering none...

To quote simakos at the prospect of a higher rebuy 180

I completely agree with this. While in theory releasing a game with higher rake is bad, I would much rather have higher rebuys with more rake than not have them. That being said, I think 10+1 w/ rebuys that are also 10+1 would be best. I honestly can't think of much of a reason that rebuys aren't raked in the first place. The fish won't care about the higher rake, and if there are fish in a large buyin rebuy, the regs will come regardless of the extra rake.

the stars rep has stated the concern about not having 11r/180s due to liquidity NOT rake, why is everyone jumping to conclusions?

Thats a quote from AWice. I encourage everybody to share their opinions.

As a direct response, the reason people like rebuy 180s is due to them having a greater possible edge due to a deeper structure as well as less variance. If you've read this thread and that's anywhere near your conclusion, I really question whether you have the players interests in mind at all.

I see you suggested just making a game with a structure for more play, but that seems a lot more complicated than adding higher rebuys. Personally, I would prefer all 180s have a deeper structure, but I assume there are a lot of regs who wouldn't like that. Which is why having rebuys exist is good.

CG, believe me, I have played 1000s of 3r/180s in my life. They are a great thing. But you can't kill the messenger. What I said are the facts about WHY PS doesn't want higher rebuy 180s. Infact, 3r's are very likely under review. Of course I have the player's interests in mind. But I can't come to the meeting and push to offer a product with 3% rake when similar offerings are 9%. It will never happen. 3r/180s are an anomaly, an artifact of the past.

The best compromise you can try for is to get people interested in a 1r only tournament. Likely they will come out with ZOOM mttsngs within 3 months. When it happens, if you really want rebuy 180s, you can try to get one of those tournaments made into a one-rebuy-only tournament that is likely going to be raked twice.

But really, the distinction is meaningless. The tournament doesn't even offer that much more play ; its a fallacy. The reason is because the blinds go up every orbit (roughly). So you only get a couple extra orbits of play until the average stack is the same as a normal 180. It's the same reason why having a liveament with 25000 chips that starts at 25/50 doesn't offer that much more play than the same tournament that started at 10000 chips.

Btw if you play 45man SNGs and are willing to discuss rake and the state of the games with me, please skype/AIM me at: alexwice . I am trying to get as much information as possible. Thanks.

This is true, but its really all about rake in the end. Because the reason that there is no liquidity is because the fish go broke before PS can rake it all. But it is also true that it would be hard to fill an 11r/180.

Also the point mentioned about 10+2 R is silly. Because it rakes the single-buyin fish extra hard.

Finally they tried 7r/90s and they can't even get those things to run.

It offers way more play. There's a reason that the highest winrates are 35-45% in the rebuys but nowhere near that in the freezeouts. I know plenty of regs who have 2-3x the ROI in rebuys as they have in 8s(true ROI, not sharkscope).

I think there are other options besides just making a higher rebuy 180, although thats obviously my preference. A 10+1 cubed would be good. I personally like the idea of a 10+1 cubed zoom, but I think lots of others will disagree. 10+1 45man on demands would also be good.

The reason 180 rebuys are good is it offers MTT sized ROIs with significantly less variance. If that can be imitated in any other way it will be just as good, but the easiest way seems to be just raking the rebuys and adding higher stakes.

Because nobody wants to play 90 mans, they want 180 mans. Regs are boycotting the 90mans.

Its absolutely ridiculous that they won't even trial higher rebuys.

rebuys definitly do help my return on investment, theres no comparison. Your far deeper and theres more to play out. I would love to see 10r 180s come in. Literally any rebuy above 3 i would love to see. I don't know why they havn't been included already frankly

and those 7r 90s are stupid. why do i want to play a tornament where i rebuy and when we are only 90 people deep? it seems like a waste. If your gonna make a rebuy please make it a bigger field, i myself boycott them too.

I don't think the ROI is from that much increased play. The ROI is because the field is weaker. [Also the addon bonus that many dont take probably adds a few % to your roi. But again this is at the expense of fish which I don't like.]

I donno, I just trust Stars on this one (and myself.) These sound great on paper but are likely going to be unsustainable. Also, all these "advantages" you are touting are actually just advantages for yourself. It's difficult to see how this is "win-win" (win for you and win for stars).

I think you should focus your efforts on trying to get 7r's off the ground -- either moved to 7r/180, or more people playing, or something. Basically if 7r's cant get off the ground, then Stars is definitely not going to consider rebuy 180s for some time. I say they should trial some rebuy 180s on sunday.

Edit: Or maybe they should just move those to a more consistent scheduling. Like for example, just have a generic 7r MTT every 10 minutes, with late registration open for 30 minutes like normal. Actually, thats not a bad idea -- it means you can start playing 3 of them right away when you login. [They can use the data discovered to go to every 5 minutes or every 15 minutes at certain time periods so as to keep the number of entrants near 200]

Ya, after thinking about it more, I really like this idea actually. What does everyone think about that?

It's win-win because they can rake the rebuys, or at least the add-on. Everybody wanted rebuy 180s, and stars gave us rebuy 90 mans. I was personally fine with them, but most of the other regs don't like them. Games were going off with 25-30 regs and 60-65 fish. There weren't enough regs to make the games launch.

I think 45man rebuy on demands w/ late reg would be great, but stars doesn't seem to like on demand.

Zoom MTT SNG's would likely hurt Stars' bottom line no?

They'd surely have a negative impact on the liquidity of all other games and because of the constant decision making they require would also lead to players having to play a drastically reduced number of tables.

I'd personally love this as it would show up in the MTT lobby and launch even faster. Again, this is basically on demand. The only issue would be keeping late reg open long enough to hit a good number while not being so long that it turns from small field into big field.

I don't understand why it has to be a win-win on absolutely EVERYTHING? Stars make billions and they can't let us have one tourny or a few in the MTTSNG that they can't get a good rake on?

$7r/180s are much better than $7r/90s, so it was stupid to launch the 90s and then say the 180s won't have success because the 90s flopped?

At this point it is clear they won't do rebuy 180s at this exact time. This was made clear over 200 posts ago. And yes it does. Stars is a multi billion dollar company, part of the reason is because they are obviously not going to let anything slide ever. Anytime you get something, its because its good business.


I was thinking more about the :10 mtt idea. I think you can call it "Ten At Ten". $10r MTT, every 10 minutes (:00 :10 :20 :30 :40 :50 ). Might have to be a $10 (1r) though.

I would try to trial this on Sunday.

Edit: I think you can just have late reg open until the end of the rebuy period, or until a cap is reached. Or maybe no cap. If there was a cap, 240 seems like a good cap.

By 1r, do you mean a 1r1a or just the rebuy?

Your idea seems legit.

But saying they can't let anything slide because it's not good business is ******ed. Giving promotions is part of successful campaigning and letting a few(perhaps even just one) be run at a lower rake in the MTTSNG section is a good promotion, as it keeps customers happy and keeps them playing the games and they continue to churn out money from happy customers, just like any promotional campaign is intended to do for any business. Are they really going to shutdown the rebuy/180 games because there aren't getting 7% more rake(which is less than a $1) and I know that equates to a lot over time, but COME ON?! They have to keep the rebuy/MTTSNG games as they offer more play, more fish and more variety.

This is an interesting idea, almost an on demand in a way given the varying amount of runners it could attract and the frequency of them too.

Would this only last an hour or happen throughout the entire day?

It equates to a lot more than you think. Hypothetically lets say the tournament rakes $1 instead of $3, and lets say 70 run a day. Then $2*70*180 = a difference of like $25k a day. A $9m/yr difference.

If they wanted promotions they would do promotions.

Just the rebuy. It would either be a normal rebuy tournament, or a 1r. Likely 1r -- I'm not sure a normal $10r can be sustained that many times a day. If it can though, that would be great.

I think 8$ 1r1a would run more than 10$ 1r, but I may be mistaken. Both of those would be good though. I think given the fact that its being brought up due to the 180 issue, if its a 1r only it should have similar blind structure and 2k starting 2k rebuy, to be as similar as possible, or even 2500/2500.

I like the $8(1r1a) idea, cap on it? how often is it running? stacking stack?

And for them charging a rake of $3 on 3r/180s? that's insane, abi, is like $10? so they should get $1 and obv just rake on rebuys not initial bi.