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****Official PartyPoker/Bwin 2015 MTT Discussion Thread**** ****Official PartyPoker/Bwin 2015 MTT Discussion Thread****

08-09-2016 , 08:38 AM
Something from party really needs to be said on this.

That specific mtt and those players aside, I want To know what will happen to me if I do this same thing, albeit on a much smaller scale.

I've been presented with this exact opportunity about 10x in the last month alone but haven't acted on it. But it has crossed my mind.

Please provide an answer as to what the actual rules are, this is very important for everyone.
08-09-2016 , 08:46 AM
For our high rollers - I have some great news - if tonight’s $530 buy in High Roller $50K GTD tourney at 20:00CET (14:00EDT) makes a total prize pool of $100K - we will run this guarantee weekly for the remainder of the month!!
That’s an extra $50K in the pot every Tuesday for the whole of August for you to win

Good luck at the tables!

08-09-2016 , 09:09 AM
If the three players had legitimate hands (AA, KK, KK), does Party still freeze the winning player's account and take back the winnings?
08-09-2016 , 01:40 PM
Define legitimate hands for this spot

Bc 22+ A8o+ A7s+ is super strength for the first guy 66/A9 for sb and 88/AT for bb

Clearly this is a grey zone which party will try to use to their advantage. The fact that sb woke up with QQ might help them and I mean k3o is actually a way above par hand to commit the third stack given he action and the maths involved.

I rly don't see why these guys shouldn't get paid, this is on the site to prevent with some programming worth way less than 1k usd
08-09-2016 , 01:59 PM
Just giving the most extreme example with my hands. Obviously ranges will be lower.

The point is that there is always an inherent risk with setting a large guarantee, whether it is paying a $10k overlay from not enough players entering or having the tournament end early like what happened here and losing much more.

The fact that only 3 players regged from the start should be enough reason to: 1) fix your system so this doesn't happen again and 2) incentivize players to register from the start (extra rakeback, reduced rake, better blind structure, etc).

This should be a $92,200 lesson for PartyPoker.
08-09-2016 , 02:01 PM
Can someone post the exact hands and preflop betting action so we can get some perspective?
08-09-2016 , 02:12 PM
Starting stacks 25000
Blinds 50/100
Btn (veeea) jams A9o
Sb (no idea) calls QQ
BB (insert) overcalls K3o
08-09-2016 , 02:38 PM
Invert Mousewheele option pleas ?

And lol @ veeaaa. Just unban them and give them BI back + couple of 500$ HR tickets or something.

What always seemed a good solution to me was a somewhat high minimum entrans and keep the tournament on hold until that number its reached so it never gets cancelled.

Or any other solution is fine, but by judging by the speed of the earlies software fixes it may take a couple of months. Just hope it;s not gonna get cancelled every week now because of too high min entrants.
08-09-2016 , 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party_Rep ****Official PartyPoker/Bwin 2015 MTT Discussion Thread****
For our high rollers - I have some great news - if tonight’s $530 buy in High Roller $50K GTD tourney at 20:00CET (14:00EDT) makes a total prize pool of $100K - we will run this guarantee weekly for the remainder of the month!!
That’s an extra $50K in the pot every Tuesday for the whole of August for you to win

Good luck at the tables!

you crazy mofos - EPT barcelona upcomming - no way you hit that guarantee unfortunately. I like the heart but I think its a bit overdoing it - noone will blame you if you reduce it back to normal for the 16.8/23.8 unless you want to give out 20k-30k to players at least
08-09-2016 , 06:57 PM
Hello everyone. My screenname - nicecallLol

Iím dealt QQ, I see the all-in, I call here 100 out of 100 cases. I donít know, whether it is a missclick, a fake-missclick, a flip attempt, etc. I donít care, I have QQ.

Spoiler:


Iím curious what, from Partyís perspective, I was supposed to do in this situation?

Since the moment this SHR took place for the 1st time, Iíve played it 15 times, and Iím not sure whether anyone even played it more often than me. I always play it and I always started without latereg. I registered it at the beginning of my session, 3 hours before the tourney started.

Spoiler:


My account was banned, and I had more than 15k on it.
Spoiler:

No one contacted me and no one responds to my emails (except auto-answer).
08-09-2016 , 07:52 PM
In my opinion the players are in the right here unless party can prove they went against their ToS and it was premeditated, which we from outside can speculate all we want but without definitive proof there's no way they should have the accounts banned.

The bb is effectively getting 2.6k to 100k on the call.

Does this consitutes in collusion? Maybe, but there are several spots of collusion in a satellite that everyone agrees that it is in the best interest of the people colluding even if they aren't breaking the rules necessarily, they are making the more +EV play.

If it was premeditated collusion and party can prove it and has a ToS that gives them a right to confiscate the funds, so be it. But if not I don't think that he has that right.

You see, there's a difference between collusion to screw everybody over and collusion that it is simply right in a game theory stand point, and this case is in a grey area because:

-They are all from the same country

-It is an uncommon play, that's very risky to do if you don't know that the opposing player understand what is the correct play, and it can be massively -EV for you

-But, at the same time they are all HS regs that can understand how this play can be massively +EV

We can all have our own judgement regarding this subject but Party needs to take a unbiased approach on this one, i think. I too have my own toughts on this one but i don't have the authority or the means to prove who is in the right or who is in the wrong

If party has proof or finds something in the ToS that can protect itself, then i agree with punishing the players, if not i think it is an harsh punishment. They should implement some kind of system to provide them security in this kind of subjects in the future.
08-09-2016 , 08:05 PM
it's kinda funny that totti had QQ has a fistpump instabuy for any number of blinds in every scenario yet gets banned
08-09-2016 , 08:09 PM
i like how you each present this, like you don`t know each other =)
08-09-2016 , 08:29 PM
Yeah, would be better to just write nothing, lol.
Everybody got it what you guys done, but now to act like surprised and pretend it was not talked before is just insane ridiculous
Why nobody of the 2 bustout registered again? still 92k overlay for you, so why not registered 1 more bullet?
We all know the answer, so the only question is, if your flip is allowed due TOS or not.
Seems like Party didn't liked your move, they should at least talk to you though.
08-09-2016 , 08:38 PM
The tournament is over at that point. Pretty sure they would not be able to re-enter even if they wanted too. It's funny that the way the hand plays out they can build a legit case that they didn't collude and Party can't ever prove it. Unless they sent the other guys immeditaly their share of the profit on Party. But can't imagine them being that ******ed
Just unban them with a warning and throw a bit of free money at them imo and fix the tourney.
08-09-2016 , 08:50 PM
lol @ QQ guy getting banned and 15k stolen, shame on party.


funny how you penalise people for making correct play


just make it so the mtt cant FINISH until Latereg period has ended, situation averted. If ur software people cant make this happen then that is on YOU
08-09-2016 , 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gettym ****Official PartyPoker/Bwin 2015 MTT Discussion Thread****
lol @ QQ guy getting banned and 15k stolen, shame on party.


funny how you penalise people for making correct play


just make it so the mtt cant FINISH until Latereg period has ended, situation averted. If ur software people cant make this happen then that is on YOU

why don't you just go to stars and start jamming every hand all in pre in all the satellites and the fields starting with 1 table? i think we all know why.

Anyway, these cases don't just get "solved" overnight, people have to look into things, relook, ask for opinions, have meetings to ensure everything and everybody is on the same page. And these companies also have a lot of other stuff going on so can't just drop everything the next day. Collete said itt everybody had been contacted and biack wrote me this evening..

[09/08/2016 19:56:48] Blackk: i get access to my account
[09/08/2016 20:01:32] Blackk: seems like all ok with my account
[09/08/2016 20:14:01] Blackk: ty Pads
[09/08/2016 20:14:03] Patrick Leonard: haha
[09/08/2016 20:14:04] Patrick Leonard: ok man
[09/08/2016 20:14:05] Patrick Leonard: np
[09/08/2016 20:14:20] Blackk: i really appreciate it
08-09-2016 , 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OurSurveySays ****Official PartyPoker/Bwin 2015 MTT Discussion Thread****
why don't you just go to stars and start jamming every hand all in pre in all the satellites and the fields starting with 1 table? i think we all know why.
on stars as far as i know there is never 3 players at the table, i think min to start the game is 4-5, even if it is min 3 there are always more the 3 at start at any sat or mtt and i guess is hard to collude more then 3 way right??

as you have full right to defend party as their rep (same as I/and anyone else will do) i dont think saying that what is happening at stars is mandatory and right and is corect way to do things, also TOS at stars na party guess are different


i want to ask what will happen if for ex. if 2 guys get all in like this example A9vsQQ one fold (K3o)
and then guy who bust disconect and cant/dont want/cant deposit etc to renter and
then in next hand or cople of hands no one enter the MTT and both guys GII in some hand like open 3bet/4bet/5bet AI and call with like lets say ok hands TT vs AQ+ and the guy with more chips win that hand and bust other player???

WILL THEN BAN ALL PLAYERS ACCOUNTS, CONFISCATE FUNDS etc????

the point was is not important what will happen at stars or 888 or w/e in same situation, the question is this regulated or not in TOS and what is saying, even if the guys collude that is not important imo, because they dont ""collude"" to harm other player, which imo is only bad way to collude( soft playing each other, attacking other players sharing their cards etc ect), they ""collude"" to take advantage of the overlay and mistake in software and they make +EV play...

we all agree that shoving/calling any 2 cards in that spot is massively +++EV play,

the problem that people in charge at party dint think that people who exploit other people for money wont think about it and push the opportunity, is another thing to talk about


i mean WE ALL LOVE PARTY, WE ALL WANT PARTY or 888 or w/e X poker site not owned by AMAYA TO OFFER BETTER GAMES FOR PLAYERS, AND BE COMPETITIVE WITH STARS, and because all of this, I hope this thing will be settled in both sites interest

i dont want to put more fuel on the fire, but from my point of view and experience veeea has a wining case if this thing get to court.... i hope this wont end there because those 100k party might use them for some promos for all players (like 100% deposit bonus and you can release it only playing MTTs and earning points, so prety much this guys will get a lot of $$ in that wining in MTTs)

Last edited by Re8uZ; 08-09-2016 at 11:56 PM.
08-09-2016 , 11:58 PM
If I were party I'd put a lot of emphasis on the timing on that hand. If it's SNAP SNAP SNAP then yeah whatever you have a case for collusion (I assume A9 and K3 take some time to process the situation?). The thing is there's just noooo way to prove it, and in that case the company just pretty much has to pay up or lose a bit of reputation. It's also somewhat likely that another player regs during the hand so it's not a slam dunk to pull that move. What is really weird and sketchy is that totti and biack and EVEN veea are just begging for the accounts back and not even the 100k in veeas case. If I didn't collude I'd want a bit more than that.
08-10-2016 , 03:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kranke_EinZ ****Official PartyPoker/Bwin 2015 MTT Discussion Thread****
you crazy mofos - EPT barcelona upcomming - no way you hit that guarantee unfortunately. I like the heart but I think its a bit overdoing it - noone will blame you if you reduce it back to normal for the 16.8/23.8 unless you want to give out 20k-30k to players at least
The GTD was $50K and will remain at $50K
Prize pool was $85K - IF it had hit $100K we would then have ran the HR each week throughout August at 100K - missed by 30 players
08-10-2016 , 06:31 AM
Hi All

After a recent review of our SNG offering we have made the following changes
∑ All full ring SNG tables will be changed from 10 seats to 9 seats
∑ We have removed some of the games due to lack of player support to tidy the lobby
∑ We have added some extra stakes for our more popular games and will trial some new games including some additions to our PLO and PLO8 offerings
Check the lobby for a full overview
As always feedback is appreciated

Colette
08-10-2016 , 09:12 AM
The clear solution is to ban highstakes players from late registration.
08-10-2016 , 10:55 AM
There is close to 0 chance these 3 players didn't collude before the commencement of this MTT.

However, the rationale for open shoving given by the two that posted is completely legit and is maximizing EV for ALL parties involved regardless if they chop the money afterwards (which i believe to be their intention).

A ban and confiscation of funds here is unwarranted, seems to primarily serve as a deterrent for future players to maximize their EV in similar situations. The better solution as some have already suggested is to not allow tournaments to finish until late reg has ended and Party chalk the loss up to a learning experience.

By banning these players, it opens up the doors for more grey area bans where it is completely reasonable to have implied collusion even though there was no discussion apriori.
08-10-2016 , 11:56 AM
Can someone from Party just confirm what is the worst hand we can call with in the HR example just so if other people are attempting collusion in a sat we can call and not get into trouble.

Thanks
08-10-2016 , 03:11 PM
been reading over Party T&C today a little, there a numerous paragraphs which could be used to justify all kinds of different actions by Party in connection to the "SHR problem".


Just for those shouting "you have to proove collusion, and it's gonna be difficult/impossible, otherwise you have to pay": I'm not so sure. Why do they have to prove it. T&Cs say they dont have to. By using the Sites Offering and accepting their T&Cs, players have basically agreed to accept Party as Jugde over what's ok and what's not.

Still: in my view it is extremly important party communicates how it has handled the situation and to do so transperantly. T&Cs often reserve rights individuals are not really in love with but are accepted in the faith of "noone will abuse me for agreeing if there is no solid reason to do so. I agree there might be some pretty solid reason in this case bust still, there are easily situations imaginably where those borders get blurred quickly. So please tell us what happened and how you decided.
Spoiler:


17. FORFEITURE & ACCOUNT CLOSURE

17.1. WE RESERVE THE RIGHT, IN OUR UNFETTERED DISCRETION AND IN RELATION TO YOUR ACCOUNT, ANY RELATED ESP (as that term is defined at clause 8) ACCOUNT, ANY ACCOUNTS YOU MAY HAVE WITH OTHER SITES AND/OR CASINOS AND/OR FACILITIES OWNED OR OPERATED BY OR ON BEHALF OF THE GROUP AND, IN THE CASE OF YOUR USE OF THE GAMING FACILITIES, ANY FACILITIES THAT SHARE THE SHARED GAME/TABLE PLATFORM, TO TERMINATE THESE AGREEMENTS, WITHHOLD YOUR ACCOUNT BALANCE, SUSPEND YOUR ACCOUNT, AND RECOVER FROM SUCH ACCOUNT THE AMOUNT OF ANY AFFECTED PAY-OUTS, BONUSES AND WINNINGS IF:

17.1.1. You are in material breach of any of these Agreements;

17.1.2. We become aware that You have used or attempted to use the Facilities for the purposes of fraud, collusion (including in relation to charge-backs) or unlawful or improper activity (including without limitation, any manipulation of the multi-currency facilities);
[...]


Unfair Advantages Policy:
Where we in our absolute discretion determines an unfair practice has taken place (whether an advantage has been gained or not) the person or persons responsible for that practice will face one or all of the following consequences:

We may email the offender(s) and demand the immediate cessation of all unfair practices;
We may suspend the offending account(s) for the purposes of conducting a thorough investigation into the unfair practices'
Ultimately, we reserve the right, in our sole discretion, to terminate the offending account(s) indefinitely and for all funds in the account(s) to be forfeited (see section 5, 19, and 21 of our Terms and Conditions of Use)



paragraph 14: We reserve the right to void and withhold any or all winnings made by any person or group of persons and to void and withhold any Standard Player Points gained by any person or group of persons where We have reasonable grounds to believe that said person or group of persons is acting or has acted in liaison in an attempt to defraud or damage Us and/or the Group and/or the Facilities and/or the Platforms in any way.


I think it is pretty obvious that someone who understands why openshoveing is max EV if the other players understand what's going on as well (and also overcalling K3o) said person also understands that this will "damage Party"

      
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