Needs Moar

ass tho

Wow you come as a gigantic tool in the entire post, but this is pretty laughable. You do know that most people living the "average suburban life" will be making more than you in 10 years right? Especially if you continue to play 180mans? Basically someone regarded as one of the top players/coaches claims he can make 100k in a year. I'm sure it's possible and there's a good chance he can do it. But it's far from a glamorous and baller income. I'm sure from where you stand right now at 19 (but you have life wisdom!) 100k seems like enough to retire on. Trust me it's not, and in the long run it's not actually that much money. So keep focusing all your time on a game where the best players top out at around 100k and where that number is only going to go lower and lower.

See I have absolutely nothing against someone doing it, but then doing it and bragging to someone else how they're so above average and how having a non-poker real job is somehow worse and then to have the balls to ALSO say you have more life wisdom just makes anyone who actually does have any life experience laugh pretty hard. I'm sure right now your life expenses are super low and you're still getting used to the amount of money you have while your friends are all busto right? You probably live with your parents or else have roomates and pay really low rent. Maybe I'm wrong I'm not pretending to know you but in general when you start actually paying expenses you'll realize that you don't have as much money as you think you do and that the value of a steady income will go up considerably. What happens in 5 years when shen has coached a bunch of other regs and the best you can do is 30k/yr and he's been promoted and is making 150k/yr with benefits and a salary that's only going up? I'm not saying don't play poker I'm just saying think about things a bit more before you assume you actually know everything there is to know about life right now, because based on that post you really don't have much of a clue and this is one of the reasons I can see for people calling shen's program unethical. It basically preys on people who are busto and have no life experience and exploits them pretty hard.

ok I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are the #1 180man coach in the industry. So now I have a cure for cancer that I charge 50k for. Now there's another guy out there selling this cure for $500 and their cancer will be cured but they also will get a minor cough for the rest of their lives. Then on top of that I actually give classes on how to cure their cancer which if they take the deal for $500 they can simply pay me $500 to cure the cough that comes with the competitor's cancer cure. So basically yes you're right your product is worth it if it's the only one on the market. But there are competitors out there and thus in a free market the price will tend towards its actual worth not just the utility value for those that purchase it.

eh never said that at all I think you misunderstood me I said one of the following was true (and imo the claim that the coaching they receive plus variance reduction is worth 50k is the claim I would say is most likely to be false), not that all were.

Oh also I agree pretty much 100% with OMGClayDol's post.

I for one would like to hear more thoughts from the wise 19yo with a full year's experience of playing MTSNGs on the internet. Perhaps start a well?

Speaking for myself here:

The day I´m envious of a guy with poker profits for 250k$+ that feels the need to squeeze $ 450 of my tiny BR under the name of "proper bussines" please shoot me in my head, TY.


@OMG clay: 100% what i meant if I knew how to proper put English words together, ty.

MTT players call MTTs "real poker" (compared to 180s). Cash game players will probably laugh at you =P

Umm...DUH? I already agreed many many times in this thread with this notion. If I am a cash game player I would laugh at all tourney players as well.


LOL @ Shen888 bragging that you are more skilled than mement_mori at <30 BB.

You're goddamn right I am.

What's the usual standard of achieving expertise on a topic?

• Lots of practice - I have been in <25bb situations for more than 65k times
• <25bb poker is the main focus of my work
• Theoretical knowledge that is has been fine-tuned again and again over the almost 4 years
• Practical application of theory. If it doesn't work then it's just theory (and can't tell if it really works unless we test it over a proper sample).

This is like you saying " LOL @ x 65k sample 9man grinder who think he is better than Phil Ivey at ICM."

Obviously that's a bit extreme of an example, since mementimori has spent more time <25bb poker than Ivey at ICM. But you get the point.

But remember. I am not bragging. I am stating facts. I am not bragging saying I am better than mement. I am stating I am better than mement <25bb because of I've done XYZ. I also fully state/agree that if mement did XYZ he would not only be better at <25bb than me but also get to X level way quicker than me.


-The coaching log on Skype was pretty unfair. As both a coach and student (i.e. I've coached and been coached) I think 100% a coach should be able to make exceptions for reasonable events/beyond control, like a family members sickness. To deny this, then be a hypocrit by delaying because of your car is pretty ridiculous and like the student said unfair..

Re-read my post please. Please look at the 4 standard terms I always give to my hourly based students.

Point #1 - Once payment is received, sessions can no longer be canceled. But can be RESCHEDULED.

In regards to Jose, I DID ask him to find a specific date. I DID ask him to go out of his way. I DID apologize and realized right away I wasn't professional in that instance. I DID make amends.

We all slip up sometimes in regards to professional courtesy. I am no different. But please do not make it out to seems like I am forcing people to make their coaching date when their mom/dam/friend is dying.


35,000 games, worse than 50/50 split average, SIGNING A CONTRACT TO NOT BE ALLOWED TO GET A JOB?? "If the backer decides to cancel the deal, the horse must pay $750-$1000 for the coaching"!?!?!?! lol


I already disputed these points many times in this thread. There are very specific and logical reasons for those terms. Once again, if they don't agree with, don't sign!

And let me ask you, the no job clause...why would anyone get into a stake/back deal if you feel there is reasonable chance they might need to go back into real world due to circumstances that may occur? Maybe you should take some business pointers and implement this clause instead of risking the chance of deals being put on hold/never hearing from them again.

What wrong with asking students to take a serious look at themselves - do they want to work in the real world or pursue poker? They need to make a decision and then put 100% into it. That's how someone gets really good - not 60, not 80, not 90, 100% effort.

Not to mention the fact I actually help out students when they are contemplating of going back to a job? Hello?


Contract an extra 29,000 games
Get a worse average cut
Contract to NOT being employed full-time for 14 months
Risk having to pay 750-1000$ if you decide they fail during probation
And much more..

Tbh a lot of people actually have similar rois, just over a smaller sample. Have doubts there is any reason you have a massive edge over these said guys, there is only so much to 180s.

Anyone who is on 25% roi long term is capable/intelligent enough to improve their game if they want to.


I don't think you understand sample sizes.



Here is your life-time 180 stats. Below is my and brad2002tj. Your 2283 game sample is quite literally, next to insignificant. It would be like a 9man grinder offering coaching after playing 200 games. Now obviously you've have shown on a theoretical level that your 2k game sample is more significant than some random 2k sample guy who probably was on heater. But the bottom line is, as you can see above, 2k games is NOTHING.

If someone just look at the stats above and doesn't understand sample size significance they would come to the conclusion of:

• you're really good and this brad2002 and shen character are complete scrubs.
• Shen888 should quit 180s now because after 8k (huge sample!!!) games he should realize he sucks and better off spending time on more rewarding tasks.
• Brad2002 is just a complete fish, how you do you lose 7k in 180s (sorry I had to use you, but love you brad )?

IMO, 30k minimum is the standard in 180s to get a good sense of where they're at.

So looking at your sample and based on the 4 points I've stated at top of this regarding "usual standards for expertise" - You simply don't qualify.

So in regards to your student, nice job (and I am being totally sincere here). And the fact is, he paid according to you 50% of 20k, so $10,000. I think that's good value for what YOU can offer.

But the problem is, games are constantly evolving. What worked 1 year ago, doesn't work as well 1 year later. On the surface people might still look like they're doing the same, but in reality there is much more layers of sophistication in play now.

Your student's 20% ROI at 6500 games (remember sample size again), is probably not 20%. Could he eventually turn out to be 20% player? Sure. But the fact is his 20% at 6500 games is not enough close to being the same 20% as a guy who has 35k game sample.

With your coaching, I certainly believe everything you tell your students is what YOU think is the correct way to approach 180s. The fundamental flaw remains - students at the end of day, are getting knowledge from a guy that has pretty much an insignificant sample. Knowledge that hasn't been rigorously fine-tuned, tested over a significant amount of time.

BUT you know what? That's OKAY. The value of what YOU can offer at your level of skill is fair. But don't come here and tell me what I CAN offer and the price I am asking for is ridiculous. You dont' even know what I can offer.

----

Going back to your student. What is he going to do when he hits a ceiling? Get more coaching? So if that's the case, say he signs up for another 6500 games. Do you see how that its starting to get in the territory of my "ridiculous" 35k game contract?

Now factor in the income he lost because he was playing sub-optimally for X games (before relaizing he needs more coaching). You could've played X games at $X higher win-rate, had he just learned things correctly and do it right the 1st time around. Time is money after all.

The skill you taught them (at fair value) won't be all that optimal 1 year later. Heck 6 months later. The asset they've paid for and acquired is a diminishing one. His 20% ROI (which is realistically 15 or 10%), could be cut down by 5% 1 year later. And that's problem faced by many 180 grinders. They hit ceilings and don't know what to do anymore.

Whats your student going to do when he hits HIS ceiling at 10k game mark? And than another one at 20k game mark? My contract is 35k games, so that we breakthrough as many ceilings as possible. Sure my students could hit another at 45k game mark, but my training much much better ensures they experience as many of the potential problems that may arise AND I am there to guide them when they do face problems.

There is only so much you can do for a student on a theoretical level. At the end of the day, problem spots simply need to come up through time and solutions provided for. My contract ensures as many problems come up that they can learn solutions to.

My sample has been tested through time. I have gone through all the changes in games and adapted successfully. I've adapted successfully because I have a very strong theoretical models in which I can change variables and adapt accordingly. So in essence, I not only offer technical knowledge for students, but I also train their theoretical minds to think through future poker problems and adapt.

Furthermore, after they're done with me they have a ROI and sample size that is SIGNIFICANT. That they can confidently rely on. That they can confidently use to gauge profit expectations and plan their life around it. They have a knowledge base that is not a diminishing asset. They have the knowledge/skill to make sure it doesn't diminish.

So if students want basic to semi-advanced 180 knowledge and make some money on the side, great, by all means go to you or whoever. My training is not for them. But students come to me because they want MASTER the 180s. Not decent, not okay, MASTER. They want to play this professionally and launch their poker careers.

----

And to finish off my thoughts, guys keep saying why would anyone keep at 180s for more than 1 year. Have you guys done the research? It ain't that clear MS MTTs are more viable, esp considering many of the guys are staked. Add to the act that, which I've said already, that I don't think anyone has hit ceilings in 180s. There IS more to 180s. I truly believe a 200k year in 180s is possible. Sure it won't be anywhere close to easy at all. And no one can do it right now per say. But I do believe it's realistically possible.

With the 180s, students have on their hand a reliable skill - year in, year out. They can more or less expect to make X if they put in X hrs. If someone who with a respectable win-rate @ near 30k game sample can go on ~6k downswings over 4k games, I don't want to know what MTT downswings are like.

I've read noahSD's articles and they make a lot of sense, everyone should go read it if they haven't. http://www.nsdpoker.com/2011/01/mtt-pros/

Sure you could say play 180s as a variance killer to MTTs. But that's where we run into problems. Mixing 180s alongside MTTs is going to affect quality of both games. Not optimizing profits and efficiency. Now you're getting into the territory of a self-filling prophecy of not making enough in MTTs, so need to add 180s.

But say we don't mix 180s with MTTs and sticking to a schedule of - weekday MTTs, weekend 180s. This isn't very optimal either. Where are we going to find time to truly improve our MTT game if that's the case? And if we aren't improving, we're getting worse. Our skills become stagnant. Leads to not making enough money. Which leads to requiring being staked for MTTs. Which leads to further cutting down your profits.

So guys please don't say 180 grinders are ******ed for staying in them past 1 year.

Now the idea of dealing with MS MTT to get to HS MTTs, now we have a very solid argument. But that's a whole other topic for discussion. My point is apples to apples, it certainly ain't all that clear MS MTT > a really good 180 player.

Have doubts there is any reason you have a massive edge over these said guys, there is only so much to 180s.

Come back and say there is only so much to 180s after you hit your 1st 5 or 10k BE/DS.

this thread was great before this

I wouldn't say great, but yeah this lengthy debate about the merits of one guy's draconian coaching contract is boring as hell.

Someone post a HH of a spitecall or a 6BB flip or something please

http://forum.parttimepoker.com/coach...lysis-new.html
Cloning?
The website that srollins44 mentions is yours or what?
Would you suggest to smn to apply to your former student stable?

Wow at the last pages.
FML I missed it.

i'm sure a salesman who's been working for 20 years will believe (or say, if he's in an interview or something) that any salesman working <15 years doesn't know the truth about sales.

I agree with you on 100k not being enough. With David's post, I don't think he was referring to people in general - as in anyone who works "real" job is a complete tard. He had Oxmop (the guy that scammed me) in mind.

If my memory serves me correct, I don't think Oxmop even has a real job. I think he is relying on poker as his source of income more or less, kind of a silly decision, but hey to each their own.

But here you're talking about him making 100k for rest of his life. Obviously at some point he will move on to bigger and better things. But look how young he is? He is 19!

Oxmop is 30 I believe. So that's a 10/11 year difference. Let's just say David's income is capped off at 100k/year for next 10 years. 1 million dollars. He is already 1 million ahead pace of oxmop.
So let's say David takes 10 years and makes 1 million dollars, moves on to something else at age 30. Oxmop is 30, so he has what, maybe 25 good work years left in him (retiring at age 65). Chances are he won't make 1 million in 25 years. But if he does, heck lets say oxmop makes 1.5 million, David still has 25 years to go while oxmop is retired.

Not to mention the utility David has with the income he is already earning at 19. He can put a % of his income into money making vehicles (retirement funds,stock market,w/e) and basically achieve the same X amount dollars Oxmop will receive from his retirement plans in much less time. And if David is smart enough to invest young and not blow it on hookers/blow and not touch the money and let things compound over time - it's basically like saying Oxmop started a retirement plan with $5000 investment at age 30 and David started with $50,000 at age 20.

I WISH I had David's opportunity at his age, or at least knew of something like that. I wish I was wise enough to do this, but at 19 I was doing jack-all. David understands you have make sacrifices, which at 19 is a perfect age to do it. David is WAY ahead of majority of people in his age group.


I'm just saying think about things a bit more before you assume you actually know everything there is to know about life right now, because based on that post you really don't have much of a clue and this is one of the reasons I can see for people calling shen's program unethical. It basically preys on people who are busto and have no life experience and exploits them pretty hard.

Or maybe I turn people that are busto/zero experience into quality income levels? Is that so unethical? Provide them with quality incomes in 1 year, which they use to make more money, and more money will lead to freedom to pursue other ventures (not living paycheck to paycheck and can't pursue other venues because he/she has to pay the bills next month?).

The guy is 19! What does he have to lose? If my program works out, great. If my program doesn't, that's okay. He "wasted" 1 year of his life. Whereas most of us at 19, really wasted our time


Now there's another guy out there selling this cure for $500 and their cancer will be cured but they also will get a minor cough for the rest of their lives. Then on top of that I actually give classes on how to cure their cancer which if they take the deal for $500 they can simply pay me $500 to cure the cough that comes with the competitor's cancer cure.

Well why anyone would charge $500 for cure when people are paying 50k is beyond me. But obviously, you're just trygin to make a point, and I get what you're trying to say.

So in your example, curing cancer for $500 vs $50k is apples to apples as far as end results go. So yes, if there is someone do the same thing for $500, they would an idiot not to go with it of course.

But I do believe what I offer is unique. It ain't apples to apples. I am pretty much the only guy in 180man coaching arena, who is not only qualified (in term of skills and the ability to teach) but offer coaching at such depth/scale. The next comparable guy is ihaterivers, I dont know much about his operation but if he offers $500 for even 70% of the same quality, depth/scale coaching as I am, then yes the students really really should go with him.

Yep, I agree I definitely went too far with the Oxmop note. Slept on it, and now I feel like a pretty big ass. I stand by what I said about Shen, but the note was me high on my own drama. Pretty ******ed looking back and reading it. The fact of the matter is, I spent last time posting on this forum instead of working. I am doing the same now. I think I just wanted to sound all high and mighty, but I'm just a normal kid with some big dreams. Nothing to get excited about.

Apologies to Oxmop for the note at the end. The only real fact is that the contract wasn't for him. It didn't work out, he quit, end of story. Not everything in life works out perfectly. Anything else regarding the matter is just speculation and personal opinion. I am sorry for being such an ass to you. That should not have been posted.

To OMGClayDol:

Your student's sample size is meaningless. You need at least 30-40k games in 180s to have a respectable sample. You can go on 7k downswings and 10K break-even stretches as a top player. You can also go on 20k heaters as a terrible player. Why are you advertising his stats? Are you not aware that they hold no merit? I'd be extremely surprised if your student could maintain 20% ROI over a respectable sample.

Frankly, I've seen some of your videos and you have some pretty significant leaks in your fundamental skills. That's not a personal insult, it's just fact. You're teaching incorrect concepts. I would not learn from you if you coached me for free. This is my personal opinion. I am not saying that no one should learn from you. If someone really wants your substandard coaching, they have a right to do so. But I wouldn't, having seen your shoddy game and suboptimal play.

Again, I'd just like to say I am fully aware that Shen's contract has terms that most contracts do not. It's a personal choice whether or not to go along with it. Of course, you guys can debate the validity of the terms and the fairness all you want. I'm merely stating that I am fully satisfied with the contract. Would I like a better cut? Obviously, who wouldn't? Was I worried about the probation period when I was initially signing? Gee, you think? But it's turned out for the best and I'm happy with my progress. He's not the greatest player that ever existed, and this isn't the greatest possible contract that was ever devised under the heavens. I don't make any of those claims. The success of a contract lies in its ability to mutually satisfy both parties, and his has done that. Maybe there's some top notch coach with a great 70/30 simultaneous staking/coaching contract somewhere. If there is, I haven't found it. If anyone finds one, please let me know.

In my opinion, this is the best 180s contract I could have, but again, that's my opinion. You guys can compare options all you want. You're free to do so. All I can say is 95% of the 180 coaches out there are complete trash. They are clueless about what they're talking about. They do 'feel-based' shoves and calls and haven't spent the time to fully look at the mathematics and dynamics behind these situations. It's a simplistic area of the game, but there is a high degree of sophistication to it.

Whats your risk to reward ratio? Is the chip gain necessary? What is the utility of your chips? Do you know the exact profitability margins that are acceptable? How do you modify your ranges? What range of ranges do typical opponents have? How does a typical player incorrectly adjust? How does the function of fold equity across multiple players affect your decision? How do you adjust when shoving into uneven stack sizes? What about when each of those players has a different calling range? What about when each of those players have different skill levels and adjust their calling ranges differently? The list goes on. These are things that Shen and I discuss on a daily basis. His end-game is at a level that most people don't even venture into.

There are a select few that are top notch, but the majority are just suboptimal players who are completely unqualified to coach.

About the suburban lifestyle hit and life maturity comments. I apologize, they are emotional statements that hold no factual validity. Obviously there are many things in life I have yet to learn. I've already learned so much making ******ed mistakes in the past two months. Add another year on top of that and I'll probably be a whole new person. A suburban lifestyle is also nothing to sneeze at. My parents are very comfortable living the upper middle-class life. They do not envy me. Rather, they're worried I'm going to crash and burn. I'm not. However, that's my decision, and there are many aspects I've given up with my choice. I don't have a 100% guaranteed or a comfortable relaxed life. Professional poker is pretty cut-throat and it takes a hell of a lot to make it to the top. It's a career where if you're not at the top, you're nothing.

I chose poker over a career in actuarial science which would have given me a very respectable income and a stable career path. I chose poker because it was challenging and I was willing to head to the top. I was bored in school and wanted something more.

As for the comment about earning potential, I'm not going to be playing 180s for the rest of my life. That's ridiculous. I'm going to move on to HUSNGs afterwards and spend time to reach the 1000+ stakes. I like heads up play a lot and I will head in that direction before MTTs. The comparison of incomes is incorrect. It's comparing a college-educated employee with a high income to some frozen-in-time poker player who will grind 180s for the rest of their life. Does the college-educated employee not advance to managerial positions to do so? Is the poker player brain-dead and confined to 180 turbos for the next 20 years?

I already have the earning potential to make 8k / month. It's going to be up to 12k in a few months. It would have taken me another 2 years to finish my degree for a $25/hr job. Another 4-5 years to finish my actuarial exams and I'd be up to $50/hr. In that time I would have made it up to high-stakes for sure. Maybe twice over.

I don't play poker because of the earning potential. Too many people think of this game as a pure profit-making opportunity. If I wanted to earn money, I'd work on wall street. I'd manage hedge-funds, play with stocks, and rake in money that makes high-stakes poker players look like poor folk. I play because I like determining my own schedule. I like that my job is flexible and I can live wherever I want (except the US lol). I like that I get out exactly what I put in. I don't like the idea of waiting for some old manager to promote me. Most of all, I love this game. That's why I play, not because I obsess over my immediate earnings. I do so because it makes me happy.

I take a very academic approach to my game and to learning. There are ridiculously intelligent scientists out there that don't make much. They value the validity of their research, and not their wallets. I have a similar attitude. I'd rather learn correct concepts and take a smaller cut than learn suboptimal concepts and take a larger cut. Obviously current net profit is important, but I'm a more long-term thinker. I think of the potential earnings I'd lose over my entire future career applying incorrect concepts. It would also make it more difficult to learn new things. It's like math. If I didn't learn algebra properly, I wouldn't be able to do multi-variable calculus or statistical modelling. It's a step-by-step learning process, and you need a proper foundation.

However, the reality is that the money I earn with Shen exceeds what I would have earned elsewhere. If I had a lax contract, I wouldn't put in the volume I put in now. Nor would I work to improve my game at the same feverish pace. I would be on the side rail commenting on the unfairness of life and blaming variance. That's what happened when I played HUSNGs for a while with minimal commitment. That's why I halted it for the time being to focus on one thing at a time. But hey, that's me.

Maybe others have the discipline and work ethic already developed not to need contractual terms to motivate them. All the more power to those who already do. I envy you, because I didn't. I was forced to develop these skills in poker because I had to. I already had these skills in other areas like sports and academics but I was arrogant because I thought I could just crush poker being a smart kid. I was wrong and I got pummeled harder than I thought imaginable.

Now I'm on a good schedule, working hard and being rewarded. If it wasn't for the terms of the contract, I can tell you I would have quit already. It's hard to say what would have been the 'optimal' path for me to take. Maybe another coach or contract would have done a similar job and I'm giving myself too little credit. Perhaps they have ideas that Shen does not. At the same time, the far more likely case is it would have been disastrous for me. Again, this is me, not everyone.

I'm sure everyone is super tired discussing this issue. At the end of the day, signing the contract is someone's personal choice. If you think it's unfair, don't sign it. I wouldn't sign an acting contract with a television show that wasn't for me. I wouldn't sign a contract to join the army if I wanted to start a business in two months. Oxmop made a mistake signing something that wasn't for him. I think that both him and Shen showed some sides of themselves that they normally don't show. It doesn't make him a terrible person, and it doesn't make Shen an evil ass. They're just people that didn't end up working together. Big deal.

Anyways, I'm back to grinding. This is my last comment regarding this issue.

Peace out.

Not reading words in this thread anymore

so why not just start at hu sngs

A 19 yr old kid giving life advise pretty much tilted the sh$t out of me but w/e.

Other parts were actually quite inspiring/i wish i shared your work ethic. Inb4 downswing LDO.

Lol this is pretty funny. A+. I just hope your asian though, or else this is borderline racist

ekinnehs18 has now been successfully added to your ignore list. You will now be returned to where you were.

David13524 has now been successfully added to your ignore list. You will now be returned to where you were.

thread just got significantly better

Cant believe Ive read all of this, because honestly its all just e-penis contests really and TLR posts.

The thing I am looking forward to is at the end of the year seeing how many players have made 100k from 180s. I'll take 0.

Don't think age is much of an issue here. I'd rather hear advice from a 14 year old national athlete than a 50 year old racist prick working at Burger King. Not saying I'm one to be giving advice or anything, but just noting that age is pretty irrelevant.

Anyways I think I've made enough of an ass of myself on this thread already. To anyone who read through all of it, hopefully you at least found some entertainment value in all this squabbling.

come back LOLFTSMBN, all is forgiven

Lol nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

If anyone believes David is playing poker over " manage hedge-funds, play with stocks, and rake in money " because he believe in the utility value of learning poker processes.... your an idiot...

You play poker because it was easy to get into/fun/addictive, stop bulls**ting that you do it for a different value. Its obvious if you were offered a chance to be on wall street on a highly paid job you would take it.

Your clearly picking and choosing things to say on the path you have taken, not telling us your exact reasoning for what you have done like your pretending.

To be honest your probably lying as much to yourself as to others in the thread