it sounds like you guys hate capitalism :-/ STRAIGHTEN OUT, HIPPIES

wow fake poker players really have big egos.

I take it you mostly play cash

To your 1st point, yes the beginning stages are certainly not all that optimal for making money. But at the end of day, the student has every power in their hand to speed up the process as quickly as they want to. I have never denied a student has ever come to me, asking to speed things up, so they can earn quicker. If they want to go faster, sure by all means lets get cracking.

My contract is games based. Why would I want the student to play a significant portion of those games in $2 stakes if I could move em up as quickly as possible? It would make much more sense on my end if they spent as many of the Xgame requirements on highest stakes possible.

So yes, the 1st month or 2, might be tough.We all have to make sacrifices at some point. But this is the RIGHT way to go. Why would I have my students rush to put in volume, not fully grasp new concepts, and take say 5 months to get a $X/game level. When they can put in 1/2 "tough" months and get to the same $X/game level after 1/2 months, and maximize their $/game efficiency for volume beyond months 2/3?

If we rush things off the bat and they reach in a win-rate of $0.6/game, over 5000 games. They make 3000.

OR they could make some sacrifices 1st 2 months, get to 1.2/game winrate, play 3500 games and still make more money ($4200).

As for my students, in my application, any student that has applied knows I ask them about current income level and job status. I ask this because I want to know if they're are suitable. In other words, if they are sound enough to withstand 1 or 2 of making little income. I even tell them straightup to go with the expectation of not making money (even though chances are they will).

But ask yourself this. If the students really need to make money to pay bills or be forced to live on the streets next month. Why are they playing poker? Why are they getting into this? Shouldn't they be actually working real job and not even thinking about poker?

Above all else, why do we keep escaping the fact that EVERY student were fully aware of what they signed up for? They was no time limit on deals. They didn't have to sign up now or forever lose the opportunity. If they really really had to make money, then they should wait a few months till they are comfortable financially, and then work with me.

Are you going to call me irresponsible now for decisions that are theirs to make, who are adults?

Not to mention this:

*I have provided loans to students to help with living expenses
*I have provided loans to students to buy new computer setups

Ask any of my students if this is true.

Refer to point above. They didn't sign up for a deal with me without knowing the terms. I didn't tell them 1 month into the stake that you cannot get a job/education. They knew what the terms were.

If they didn't like the terms, heck, by all means don't work with me. For my program to work and for student to get max value, it HAS to be full-time commitment.

My 2c

Poker players are above 18 years old and probably should be able to read and make their own choices as a grown up. IF they choose to enter the deal - they really can't come crying when they struggle to fulfill the contract they willingly signed.

The whole car story was pretty dumb, Shen, and if I'd chosen to buy coaching from you by the hour, I'd be damned pissed off at you too for coming up with such a lame excuse after I'd gone to such extent to fit your schedule. You run a business - not a muppet show. But overall I don't see nothing wrong with what you offer - as long as the customer signing on isn't a minor or obviously slow. Hell - if you can get customers offering them less - and taking more - dammit do it. It's a free market.

That said, I wouldn't sign on even if I didn't have a job. It's way out of what I see as fair - but, again, it's up to each player to choose what to sign, and then it's pretty much nothing else anyone can say about it. You offer a deal - they evaluate the offer - and then sign on or don't. After that, they have to live with their choices.

GL with your business.

haha yeah obv I was kinda kidding (and it's basically a running joke with the sng regs I do talk to one of which linked me to the thread ) I realize that obviously there's skill in tourneys but in general I don't really see the learning curve as that steep. Obviously he's not accepting applicants who are just learning poker they have to already be good enough/presumably made at least a bit of money from poker because they're able to commit full time to the program. I'd be pretty shocked if it took more than a month or two of full-time volume and coaching to get someone sick good at the game if the coach is one of the biggest winners. No offense but cash has a ****ton more complicated and unsolved spots whereas 180s it's almost all just shortstack play which I'm relatively sure I could teach someone in like a week max and it seems the only complexities in the switch from shortstacking cash to sngs would be icm concerns which sngwiz handles pretty well right? I mean idk I never really messed with sngs too much I prefer making more money with less hours and less variance but I'm pretty sure most of what I said here was right. It doesn't take that long for someone that has the aptitude to be a top winner with coaching from a top winner to go from an ok winning player to a sick crusher. I honestly think I'm being generous saying it'll take an entire 2 months. Then he has another 12 months where apparently he can make 100k according to shen and he only gets half? Seems like a pretty big rip-off to me. Either he's claiming his coaching is worth 50k, I'm wrong about the learning curve, or he's admitting that it's actually not all that likely you'll be making 6 figures+ in the future.

That said it's a contract and if shen can get people to sign a contract and agree to terms that suck for them there's nothing illegal or even all that wrong with doing that. People know what they're signing and if they sign the contract even if it is pretty unfair they should still have to abide by the terms even if they are pretty loltastic (like seriously he can just charge them $250/week if he doesn't want them for the first month?) and it's pretty scummy to steal from him just because you signed something that you ended up regretting later.

Well its a little more complex than that, or else there would be TONS more people crushing.

BUT, I don't disagree you. If you read a page or 2 back, you will see that I've already stated I don't think I am god's gift to poker. Like you said, "we're talking about 180s here". I totally agree with you.

180s isn't rocket science. It is not a sign of sick poker skills. I am just good at applying a handful of core skills really well and hammer things out. I don't even think I am good poker mind at all. There players are way smarter than me. Heck, there are guys in 180s with no so great results that are very likely way smarter, can theorize about poker better on a much higher level

ihateriver is pretty sick no doubt. I am sure there are few things I can learn from him. But if you gonna post a dick measuring contest (when you're not even the one comparing dicks?), do dig a bit deeper.

As we know, sharkscope doesn't track rebuys properly. So if you simply did lifetime, its obviously going to be inflated due to incorrect accounting for rebuys.

Not to mention I've only begun playing the 3r this year (and I think only more or less after black friday).



Obviously the picture is still a bit murky. How do we account for 35/180s? How do we compare sample sizes? You could say my 28% ROI is more significant/impressive than his 27% since i have done it for 37k games more (been through all the rigors variance will put you through).

BUT, I don't care. He is a sick player. For those who think I have a huge inflated ego - When did I ever come in this thread and proclaim I am the KING? When I did come in here and say rivers sucks, I own you all? Please do a search for me on 2p2 and see if you can find any evidence of me bragging away.

I am just tweaking few misconceptions in that screenshot of yours, thats all, phishman

oh and if you want to compare dicks, my micro dick is bigger than yours!



too bad i sucked at anything over $10 :P

how could i forget

this one please


stealin it for stars avatar btw

her elbows are too pointy for my tastes :/

yea, I'd kick her out of bed as well

No i charge them 250/week because my hourly is $150/hr. I didn't pull this number of my ass to use as justification to charge them the fee for leaving. Everyone who has gotten coaching from me hour by hour, knows my rate is $150/hr, sometimes as high as $200 for regs who want coaching.

So based on my hourly rate, if I were to charge someone for the full amount, $1000 after 4 weeks = 7 hrs of my time based off of my hourly rate.

Do you really think I don't even spend 7hrs with a new student in the 1st month?

I think its a bit silly for you to come in here and basically in an indirect way say tourney players (more specifically SNG players) are dumb and us cash players are way smarter/better. We already know that. We know cash is way more complex. **** yes.

But IMO, its not about cash vs MTT vs sngs. It's just about what one's specialty is. 180man players are expert <25bb players (well at least the guys who know what they're doing). Cash is 100+bb poker. MTT is 30-70bb or w/e.

Cash games are way more complex on a whole. Many more dynamics. Nobody disagrees with you. But please save some ignorance (no offense) and stop thinking "you can teach someone it in <1 week". Sure you could teach whatever YOU know about push/fold in <1week, but it probably isn't very complex.

Or sure you can teach someone the basic principles of push/fold in <1week, but there are so many more layers to <25bb than you might imagine.

This is part of the reason why there aren't more good 180man players out there. It's the same attitude of "I just do XYZ, follow a chart, see an Ace shove, <10bb button I shove ATC, wtf is there more to do...". Then they just blame variance on poor results. We all know 180mans is a "simple" game in the grand scheme of things, but if its that simple, why aren't more people crushing.

Mementmori, or insert sick MTT player is great >30bb. But I would not be surprised if I am more knowledgeable about <25bb poker than him. Now this is not a brag or anything. I am sure if mementmori/sick MTT actually dedicated more time to figuring out <25bb poker, I am positive they would figure things out way faster than me. Maybe even figure out some new way to approach <25b poker that I haven't thought of or don't have the smarts to ever do. They simply are way better poker players than me. You probably are smarter than me.

Put me at 30bb, I know what to do but will start to get a bit shaky as we get deeper and deeper. Put me at 70bb, I am clueless and just ABC poker nit it up. Put me in a cash game, I'll get owned. But if I am in a MTT where effective stacks <25bb, then I will have a leg up on everyone else.

:P

I mean obviously you have the right to do this, they sign the contract but I have never ever ever ever seen a contract like this, and I've been on both sides of coaching/staking agreements. The point of most coaching/staking agreements is that the coach usually gets on average higher than their hourly and in return the player gets no risk. For you to have the choice to make them pay for coaching when the reason they took the deal was coaching with no risk is just super out there. But again I'm not calling you unethical at all, if they agree to it it's on them to fulfill their side of the deal. I'm just saying I'd never consider such a thing and I think most people aren't really thinking about this enough when signing it.

Nope, never said this. I made a joke at the very start (I do talk to some people who post here and pretty sure they all know when I call it fake poker I'm joking) but after that the only mention I made was that cash was more complex (which is pretty obvious I think) and that the better cash players generally make more (you yourself are arguing that the the top sng players will make 100k/yr, there are people who make more than that in rakeback at cash). I never said anything about dumb vs. smart and I was very specific in that I was comparing the amount of time needing to spend to take someone who is competent into a top player.

Agree.

I think I can teach a pro 100bb cash player enough to be a very good push/fold player in a full week (that's 40 hours since you're not even allowed to have a job or be in school full time), that's all I was saying. I then went on to use the time period of 2 months, so let's just assume my 1 week is totally wrong and bull****, do you think 2 months is so preposterous?


See this is something else. Not sure how relevant it is but in general if someone is good at poker they will be pretty quick to adapt to changes. A good poker player is someone who is good at identifying ranges, understanding how to exploit these ranges, realizing how their actions will be perceived, etc. So sure you've never played much 100bb+ action but if you started playing it full time and had a top player coaching you for 2 months I'd be shocked if you weren't a solid winner assuming you are someone who actually thinks about poker vs. just clicks buttons. You'd start to realize the effects of multiple streets and how that impacts ranges and how to exploit people that have multi-street leaks rather than just simple leaks like call too much or fold too much. Further I don't know mori at all but since I've heard of him I'm going to assume he's pretty good at poker so I'd assume if he's never played sngs he would have to adjust a bit but I'm assuming that if he decided to switch that it wouldn't take him a ton of time either to switch over and become competent, especially if he's able to talk with other top sng players.

But anyway that's not really relevant anyway, you're not trying to teach a cash player or an mtt player sngs, you're trying to teach a good sng player to be a great sng player, while keeping him locked into a deal where he is profit-raped for over a year. You're probably attempting to take people who just play with a chart and make $15/hr to instead use their brain and make $50/hr (correct me if I'm wrong I really don't know how many games/hr people play so I have no clue what normal hourlies are for sngs). And that's definitely a valuable service. It might even be worth it for the player to take your deal vs. stay on his own or go with a worse stable. But that doesn't change the fact that they are getting raped. If I find out the cure for cancer is rubbing sticks together and saying a chant, I can charge cancer patients 50k for the solution and it's worth it for them. I'm still ripping them off hardcore though because it cost me nowhere near that to find the cure. The only difference is you're not even offering them a guarantee and I'm not totally convinced there aren't other coaches who provide a similar service to you (aka quality coaching) for much cheaper and actually I'm pretty sure most of these guys would be far better off going with another stable and simply paying you $150/hr for coaching.

I did notice you completely neglected my one comment though, about how the three possibilities are that I'm wrong in it taking 2 months to get someone really good at sngs from someone who was just a small winner, or else you think your coaching is worth 50k, or your claims of them making 6 figures+ is bull****.


Also as an aside I would like to say that assuming your coaching lives up to the hype you say it does that $150/hr for coaching sounds like a steal. I don't have experience with sng coaching but I'm super disillusioned by the cash coaching community just because so many of them just want to sweat, tell them what they should do, and collect their money. Instead of trying to help them improve by actually teaching poker they instead focus on specific spots and rather than explaining the logic behind it just tell them what to do. It sounds like you're actually someone who teaches actual poker so I do admire you for that and I'm sure $150/hr is going to be a pretty sick deal. I'm also not against you setting up a business where your profit margins are super large. You do have to take a large chunk of risk of horses cheating you or them not having a ton of potential and either losing money or wasting a ton of time and making very little. I think you may have misunderstood me since I'm saying the same thing a lot of the people calling you a scumbag are saying.

My position is basically:

- I can't really conceive of any player your program would be beneficial for
- It's a free market and if a player makes the decision to sign up for your program good for you for making sick profit margins and the player is responsible for fulfilling his end of the deal
- You shouldn't be surprised when people point out how bad this deal is for the players because it really is

My first "community college" graduate first 3 months at 180s



Put frankly 180s are not that hard, hell if a recovering meth addict can do it anyone can right?

Put frankly you look to rip people off that don't know better and you know you are doing this. You are as bad as any person that has rolled a stake and you get away with it with your world of lies. Those here that know me know that Im not one to go calling someone out for no reason at all and wouldn't spend the time to put my views across unless I felt it needed to be said.

FWIW mentioning someone's child and someone's ability as a father based on there 180's results is very lame, if we judge ourselves as a person on how we do at poker then we are indeed doing it wrong.

Now its time for me to step back into my retirement, I love you all and help is always there to those I call friends <3 xoxoxoxoxoxoxo

I didn't even have to search hard.

Hi there comunity, Im Roger, one of Shen horses, some of you know me and this are my numbers before and with shen (I started with him on July 8th)


I know its a very small sample size but again, im cutting down my tables and focusing more in learning the fundamentals and basics of the game before jumping in the highway...Im use to tabling 12-15 but after this im gonna be confortably 20-tabling after a few months and so on until i reach 35-40 tables, after that its gonna be easy for me to fullfill any volume requirements..Im not in a hurry, i want to learn as much as posible from shen, i have been struglying with micros for over a year and this deal its perfect for me cuz its focus on DEVELOPING players, its not a std backing/coaching deal for proven winners.

And by the way, so far i have had around 60 HHS reviews by shen, not to mention access to others students HHS reviews.
Not saying its the best deal in the world but again, it isnt for everybody...I made some bad decision in the pass leaving early some great backing/coaching deals with great 180s grinder, like the time i was under Chavarov, great guy and an awesome player and we spoke the same lenguage but i leave that stable to "take shots" at higher buy ins expecting coaching from a proven winner at those 180s as well sin i was grinding jyust the $2.50s under Chava, unfortunally for me the coaching part of the deal didnt come through as i expected and i end up leaving that stable as well, i got tired of jumping from one deal to another looking "for the best" posible deal for me and very im greatfull shen took me in, and at some point i really dont care about his condition or how hard are them on the horse, im sure some of those conditions are debatable but overall i agree 100% with them considering shen´s work ethic, numbers, experience and the time he invest on working with each horse its just ridiculous, thats undebatable.
Perhaps im wrong again but only time will tell, as of right now things are going great for me, getting a great perspective on the game, been able to detect my own leaks when reviewing my own HHS and im gonna be capable to adapt whent he game changes in time.
On a different topic, im not gonna remain as just a 180s grinder, this is just an stage for me as im aiming for low/mid stakes MTTs but want to become a consistant winner at the 180s to kill some of the MTTs variance, maintain a healthy roll and generate a steady income...Cheers.

- Roger

Pretty sure nearly everyone ITT (me inc) has said its a person's choice wether to sign or not, i just think youre prolly a little more impressionable towards people who see you as pretty much the best 180 player out there.


Trolololol

Thread /

You're probably attempting to take people who just play with a chart and make $15/hr to instead use their brain and make $50/hr (correct me if I'm wrong I really don't know how many games/hr people play so I have no clue what normal hourlies are for sngs).


Not exactly, below is my current 4 students. Sharkscope stats from Year 2010 to time they started with me. Note for luckandguts there was no 2010 stats.



So I am essentially taking on breakeven players, working them from the ground up. And to add to that, I accept all players. Skill is not required. That's my job. My policy on canceling arrangements with players is based on diligence on student's part, whether they do all the homework I've assigned, if they actually put in work. It will never be skill-related because that's my job. All I require from them is effort. And if there is effort on their end, then the relationship will work out great.


I did notice you completely neglected my one comment though, about how the three possibilities are that I'm wrong in it taking 2 months to get someone really good at sngs from someone who was just a small winner, or else you think your coaching is worth 50k, or your claims of them making 6 figures+ is bull****.


By your statement, which I agree with: "...that doesn't change the fact that they are getting raped. If I find out the cure for cancer is rubbing sticks together and saying a chant, I can charge cancer patients 50k for the solution and it's worth it for them. I'm still ripping them off hardcore though because it cost me nowhere near that to find the cure."

How are you ripping them off? It's not the process, it's the end result. What if I had the a magic touch and can turn worthless mud water into the blood of the virgins or holy water that will give you everlasting life? Sure it required zero effort on my part and cost me only water from a hole in the ground, but the customer only cares about end result. What does it matter to them how I came about the desired results? 50k to cure cancer is a steal.

So yes, if hypothetically a student took only 2 months to learn every knowledge I have to offer them, that's great. 2 months, 1 week, 1 day. It doesn't matter. The time it took to acquire the knowledge is unimportant. The actual attainment of such information is what they signed up for.

The value they attain from my coaching is not via X hours of coaching. They don't go "Okay, got 100hrs now. Thanks Shen." The value they attain is all necessary knowledge using the least amount of time possible. The less time I can teach them everything they need to know, the better it is for them and me.

And as far you saying my 100k claim is bull-****. Well, I guess we'd have to agree to disagree. I don't think its bull-**** at all. I've actually never earned 100k in 1 year from 180s. I am on pace this year, but that's beside the point. There are many reasons why I haven't put in a 100k year. But none of those reasons are due to lack of skill. If you read some of the post above and do some sharkscope searches for each year, you will see that I am always on pace to earn 100k+. Just didn't put in enough volume, partly due to side gigs but also partly due to laziness (my work ethic had to be honed, wasn't born with it).

But that doesn't deny the skill required to do was there, which is the point I was making all along. I not guaranteeing students will make 100K+/year. I am guaranteeing they will have all the skills required to do so. At the end of the day, skill is only one piece of the puzzle, you still have to actually work enough hrs. So what I offer my students is skill. 180mans, like every has said repeatedly, is not hard. So by logic - if its easy to teach and learn, then it's very reasonable assumption they will have all the tools to earn 100k/year in 1 year. Now its just up to them to complete other half of the puzzle.

And when I say "enough hours", I not am saying some unrealistic grind of 15hrs per day, 7 day a week. I am quoting this 100k/year income @ 3500-4000 games/month, which any full-time grinder working normal 45-50hr weeks can put in.

I do think my coaching is worth 50k. But it's not about what I think it's really worth. The beauty of % back/coach deals is students get exactly what I add to their win-rate. If they still suck, I don't make any money. If they do great, then both parties benefit.

Not to mention the risk on my part. What if student runs really bad? 10k-15k breakeven stretches are not un-heard of in 180s (I've experienced one myself). If they run really bad, that's the risk I take. I ain't complaining because that's the cost of doing business.

All in all, you have every right to you opinions. I do respect that you were sensible in your arguments. If you disagree with my coaching philosophy/methods, that's cool, to each their own. Just don't call me a scumbag, deceiving people and putting them in poker slavery, which I don't think you're saying, so I respect that.

You seem like a smart dude. So best of luck to you.

if they had a problem with me they didnt tell me and 2nd they all told me they were disapointed the way you reacted , very childish reaction because you ran bad and i said strike 2 lolllllll cmon man tell me theses people that had a problem with me to come here and say why. so far you are the only one with shen.

Statement of facts, not bragging.