I never really play MTTs, and certainly never played one of these new mystery bounty formats, so this scenario was a bit of an odd one for me.

20 from the bubble, I open a standard 2x raise with KK and face an all-in shove from an unknown (after one limper) that would have decimated my chips if I lost a flip. If this was cash or a standard MTT, I would have called this all day long, but does the bubble / mystery bounty format change anything here? Everything tells me that I should call (I need chips to win bounties, I need to be aggressive, I'm only getting it in bad against Aces etc etc) but for I just couldn't. I think it's a horrible fold, but just wanted to get some more opinions and ask if the tournament format changes anything.

PokerStars - 400/800 Ante 120 NL (8 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 29.39 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
BTN: 60.17 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
SB: 22.25 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 17.95, 3Bet Preflop: 30.77, Hands: 42)
BB: 85.59 BB (VPIP: 18.18, PFR: 16.28, 3Bet Preflop: 9.68, Hands: 91)
UTG: 67.21 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 18)
UTG+1: 113.59 BB (VPIP: 44.44, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
Hero (MP): 32.59 BB
MP+1: 30.69 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)

8 players post ante of 0.15 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.7 BB) Hero has K K

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.2 BB, MP+1 calls 2.2 BB, CO raises to 29.24 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold

CO wins 9.3 BB

As it transpires, I'm now currently sitting last in chips as I've been card dead for an hour and slowly being blinded down. Perhaps I should have called!

It is important to know how much the buy in was, can you still rebuy, starting stacks, how many players in the tournament, how long are the levels, and if you knock out the other player do you win a bounty or does it start when you are in the money?

Regardless I would have called. But it makes it easier if I am going to buy in again if I lose.

I would never fold KK to a 3 bet that is less than 30 bb's. My opinion is that it could be AA but it is more likely AK/AQ/JJ/QQ type hands that don't want to play postflop if possible.

I think the 3 bet for 29 bb's is bad, I would have 3-bet to roughly 7.7 bb's and been happy to play it in position.

The other thing in a mystery bounty which I have not played much is that once you are in the money you need a large stack of chips to win bounties. So I would have taken this opportunity.

"Would of decimated my chips if I lost a flip" It is only a flip against the other KK; if he is AA you are way behind, anything else way ahead. Looking at the stacks at 20 from the bubble you will need to play some hands as you can not back into the money. Really think you will get a better spot?

Very bad.

You have KK. It is not possible for you to be in a flip. You are 2:1 against suited aces, 70% against offsuit aces, and 80-82% against underpairs. And 18-20% against AA. But never a flip.

At the bubble, you don't want to take close gambles that put your stack at risk. But KK is not close. KK is a massive edge against the shoving range here.

If anything, the mystery bounty format should make you more inclined to call here, because if you win then you have a huge stack and can take more chances in marginal spots against short stacks to try to win their bounties.

You can't win tournaments if you fold edges this big.

With the mystery bounty also?? This has to be one of the worst folds ever.

20 from the money, I'm certain the re-entry period is over.

I'm pretty sure mystery bounties in all locations I've seen don't start until you're in the money.

Against a range of 88+ AJs+ AQo+ (which I think is fairly reasonable) KK has over 70% equity.

You can't fold 70/30 spots except in the most extremely rare ICM-heavy situations (or satellites, but those are entirely different animals). 70/30 spots are the kinds you look for in tournaments.

I suppose my thinking was along the lines that the bubble bursting is more valuable than normal because once it bursts, the potential for larger payouts jumps substantially, and so a mystery bounty bubble is much more important than a normal MTT bubble.

Flip was definitely the wrong word, but what I was trying to convey was whether or not there is any ICM consideration that would make you think twice against a 30bb shove.

Thanks for the feedback though, the lesson is that I shouldn't approach the bubble any differently to normal and that having a bigger stack is actually more important as it allows you to actually achieve those knockouts and cover opponents.

Correct, 20 from the money (159 got paid) and that mystery bounties only available once the bubble bursts. No bounty paid for knockouts prior to the bubble bursting.

Buy in was $44 and the mystery bounty prizes were roughly

1x $2,000
2x $900
6x $500

And I forget the rest.

Top price roughly $2.5k

No mystery bounty until the bubble bursts, which is why I ended up folding. I was hung up on making the bubble (more so than a traditional MTT) so that I could have the chance of winning them.

If I had the mystery bounty available, I was calling 100% of the time.

Rusty on my MTT shove ranges, but what would/should be in a 30bb 3bet shove range in this situation?

No more rebuys, 20 from the money (159 got paid) and mystery bounties only available once the bubble bursts. No bounty paid for knockouts prior to the bubble bursting.

Buy in was $44 and the mystery bounty prizes were roughly

1x $2,000
2x $900
6x $500

And I forget the rest.

Top prize roughly $2.5k

I very much agree with your final point, especially with the size of the stacks on my table. Going through the situation again I would definitely be calling because of how disadvantaged I was in terms of my ability to win bounties on my table.

Agree also on the 29BB being bad, it just felt so strange and given the size of the mystery bounties (and my first time playing them) I felt my tournament life was more valuable than a 70/30 equity situation (at best) while dreading AA as it was so out of line. But noted that that line of thinking is incorrect.

Thanks for the response. In this type of mystery bounty the bounties are so significant it seems to be worth more than the pay increases just after getting into the money.

I also feel very agitated with KK when I am jammed against or 4 bet against. I get that there are no flip situations with KK but the funny thing is I sometimes feel like its about fifty fifty as to whether my opponent has AA (which is what I thought you were getting at when you said flip).

In a $1,600 tournament at Foxwoods (could have been a WPT event) many years ago I was playing with a very very good professional and I had KK. I ultimately called a 4 bet jam from somebody else and I asked the pro about it after the hand (I don't remember what happened but it could have been that I sucked out on AA). He said in smaller tournaments we should never be folding KK pre flop. Ever. And by smaller tournaments he meant like under $2,500 tournaments.

Now I have folded KK preflop twice in my life pre flop in smaller tournaments. The first time I got it wrong and the second time I got it right. But for the most part I just go with it and if I lose to AA/AQ/QQ then such is life.

Two things:

1. I folded KK live near the bubble of an MTT a few years ago to an old man and still regret it because I've played with him since and realized he's completely wild.

2. In online tournaments like this I have never seen people do an oversized shove like this and show down AA. It's very often AK, and sometimes a mid-strength hand like JJ/TT.

A few things here, making the money in these bounty tourneys are a lot less important than a normal tourney since half of the prize pool goes to the bounties.

20 left before itm , 159 get paid is still far off, I’d maybe fold KK here in a satelitte but in a bounty tourney or even a normal tourney i would just call at equilibrium, in your case you need roughly 40% equity, KK is just massively ahead of his shoving range.

Your main focus is to build a stack so you can bust people later on and get the bounties and you cant build a stack if you fold KK preflop lol

No, you should approach the bubble differently... but that means, like, passing up a 52/48 spot if losing would bust you, not a 70/30 (or better!) spot.

ahem:

Honestly it's hard to say since I don't really think villain should have many shoves here at all with the bubble looming, and sometimes people will wild out and shove hands they shouldn't. It could be something like TT-QQ / AK if he's tight and respects the bubble.

The exact range doesn't really matter, though, because unless it's "AA only," you need to call. And it's not.

You are adjusting in the wrong direction, bubble is smaller in a bounty plus having a stack covering people is so so important, this fold is a big big leak

Just call it a brain fade and move on, obv it’s a bad fold.

For what it’s worth, imho the 30bb spew jam is almost always JJ or QQ (when we are blocking AK)

My thoughts exactly. The mystery bounty should significantly widen your calling range against a V you cover (assuming the big bounties are still available), as your $EV is significantly higher when you win.

but you won't win bounties unless you cover their stack..
This is a great opportunity to double up and have a stack that covers most players
This is an insane fold