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Marginal hand OOP

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03-25-2024 , 01:12 PM

Darth_Maul

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 4,435

Not the most exciting spot in the world but I'm brushing up on my OOP play, and this is a very common situation. Super early in a $20 MTT online.

PokerStars, $18.20 + $1.80 - Hold'em No Limit - 20/40 (5 ante) - 7 players
Hand delivered by Pokeit

UTG: 5,160 (129 bb)
MP: 9,056 (226 bb)
MP+1: 5,408 (135 bb)
CO (Hero): 4,223 (106 bb)
BU: 5,315 (133 bb)
SB: 5,340 (134 bb)
BB: 5,169 (129 bb)

Pre-Flop: (95) Hero is CO with 8

3 players fold, Hero raises to 108, BTN calls 108, 2 players fold

Flop: (311) 3

(2 players)
Hero bets 271, BTN calls 271

Turn: (853) K

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets 120, Hero calls 120

River: (1,093) 3

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets 280, CO (Hero) folds

Wondering about going for a x/r on the flop but given how draw-heavy it is, I opted for a large CB. Did not like that turn card.

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03-25-2024 , 01:56 PM

FreakDaddy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 18,062

Why so big on the flop? Smaller on the flop, larger on the turn = more profit. As played, it looks OK from there.

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03-25-2024 , 07:08 PM

Darth_Maul

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 4,435

The flop isn't particularly good for my range and there are A LOT of cards I don't want to see on the turn. I'm also OOP. I think betting small on that flop is a mistake.

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03-25-2024 , 10:12 PM

LifeNitFL

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2023 Posts: 239

If the flop isn't particularly good for your range, why would you put in a massive bet??

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03-25-2024 , 11:12 PM

SteelBreeze

enthusiast

Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 83

It's quite a common misconception to want to bet large on this kind of draw-heavy board.

You want to play defence when out of position, and even more cautiously when deep on such a dynamic texture. Your equity is much less stable, and once you start checking later on once the board complicated, BTN can start to put you in some nasty spots. This is exactly what happened in the hand, and even if you had a less vulnerable hand like AA, it would run into similar problems given how dynamic the boad is.

It's understandable to want to protect but this is an illusion since IP will never fold a straight or flush draw, so you are not actually protecting anything.

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03-25-2024 , 11:24 PM

nath

the second coming of the second coming

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 68,689

I'm curious as to whether the A8s flop bets in that solver are mostly Ac8c (with the backdoor flush draw) or split more evenly-- or even less frequent with the club backdoor.

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03-26-2024 , 07:17 AM

SteelBreeze

enthusiast

Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 83

Quote:

Originally Posted by nath

I'm curious as to whether the A8s flop bets in that solver are mostly Ac8c (with the backdoor flush draw) or split more evenly-- or even less frequent with the club backdoor.

Yeah more with the clubs for sure although the others are decent frequency too. For the unpaired hands it's clubs and hearts only

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03-26-2024 , 10:40 AM

Darth_Maul

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 4,435

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeNitFL

If the flop isn't particularly good for your range, why would you put in a massive bet??

Generally speaking, when you don't have the range advantage you should be betting less frequently but on the larger side when you do bet. So I'm surprised at those solver results.

I don't see the point in a small bet at all. It allows villain to continue with so much of his range and then put me in a nasty spot on later streets. The benefit of the larger bet when OOP is that it more clearly defines villain's range, making later streets easier to play. He's obviously not folding his good draws but he can have weaker overcard/draw combos that he would fold to the larger bet.

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03-28-2024 , 05:01 PM

LifeNitFL

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2023 Posts: 239

Maybe the point is just to charge the smaller pairs and 2 overcard combos that are behind in equity? It feels wrong to check when our hand needs so much protection.

When I first learned poker from Harrington on Hold'em, he said that the right way to play against draws is to charge just enough so that the opponent is making a mistake by calling. With 4:1 on a naked FD, if you're betting half, you're printing money. If you bet too much, your opponents might actually find folds.

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03-29-2024 , 02:06 PM

#10

FreakDaddy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 18,062

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Maul

The flop isn't particularly good for my range and there are A LOT of cards I don't want to see on the turn. I'm also OOP. I think betting small on that flop is a mistake.

I think most people explained why you should go smaller on the flop already, but if you're going to take something away from this hand, it should be that you're thinking about the spot a bit backwards. Hopefully you can see why going forward... it's a super important point to understand imho.

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03-30-2024 , 07:51 AM

#11

Darth_Maul

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 4,435

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakDaddy

I went over some stuff recently and realized my OOP thinking was all out of whack. Solvers rarely use large bet sizes OOP because equities run so much closer together and it's hard to have a clear nuts advantage.

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04-23-2024 , 02:01 PM

#12

Councilbluff

stranger

Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 1

Isn't the K turn a good double-barrel card for our range?

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04-23-2024 , 04:06 PM

#13

EggsMcBluffin

MTTPIOExpert

Join Date: Feb 2019 Posts: 1,464

I would use that small river sizing V used quite often as an exploit. It b-c at least a lil with like TT, JJ etc because its just begging OOP to take the pot away with a xr (id basically always have exactly what the bet implies--something valuey but foldable vs aggression) so Id expect quite a few xr bluffs there. At least, I would xr there quite a bit--I think when they go so small they write a check that'll bounce (wont b-c often enough)

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04-23-2024 , 06:02 PM

#14

Mr Rick

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,076

Quote:

Originally Posted by nath

I'm curious as to whether the A8s flop bets in that solver are mostly Ac8c (with the backdoor flush draw) or split more evenly-- or even less frequent with the club backdoor.

I would check with A8s and no BDFD but I am not a Solver... Here I would bet but small (like 20% to 25% pot size) as a more or less blocking bet. If the turn is a club/8/A I bet again like 50% pot. River would be tough if we don't hit the flush or improve. I probably check/call in case they decide to buff with flush draw. Though if a an overcard or two has hit it could be a fold on the river.

If we had bet small on the flop and got called when this turn comes I would likely check/fold.

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