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MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands

01-13-2024 , 03:13 PM
I recently played in the Mid Atlantic Poker Open's $360 Senior Event (50+ y.o.) held at Maryland Live! Casino. Structure was decent with a starting stack of 30,000 and 30 minute blind levels. The following three hands seemed worthy of review. I'll present them in the order they occurred, and let discussion wind down on one before moving to the next.

Hand 1

Level 3 (200/300/300 BBA) 7-handed

UTG (~20,000) raises to 800

UTG+1/LJ (~35,000) calls 800

HJ (~30,000) 3bets to 2,200.

Hero/BTN (29,000) has JhJc. Action?
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-13-2024 , 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun in VA
I recently played in the Mid Atlantic Poker Open's $360 Senior Event (50+ y.o.) held at Maryland Live! Casino. Structure was decent with a starting stack of 30,000 and 30 minute blind levels. The following three hands seemed worthy of review. I'll present them in the order they occurred, and let discussion wind down on one before moving to the next.

Hand 1

Level 3 (200/300/300 BBA) 7-handed

UTG (~20,000) raises to 800

UTG+1/LJ (~35,000) calls 800

HJ (~30,000) 3bets to 2,200.

Hero/BTN (29,000) has JhJc. Action?
Being that this is a seniors event I fold. Calling second best option.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-14-2024 , 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun in VA
I recently played in the Mid Atlantic Poker Open's $360 Senior Event (50+ y.o.) held at Maryland Live! Casino. Structure was decent with a starting stack of 30,000 and 30 minute blind levels. The following three hands seemed worthy of review. I'll present them in the order they occurred, and let discussion wind down on one before moving to the next.

Hand 1

Level 3 (200/300/300 BBA) 7-handed

UTG (~20,000) raises to 800

UTG+1/LJ (~35,000) calls 800

HJ (~30,000) 3bets to 2,200.

Hero/BTN (29,000) has JhJc. Action?


Well, I went with the second best option, and called. Figured I was too strong to fold, but didn't think a 4-bet here was advisable. I've got position post-flop (if it comes to this) and unless UTG is super-strong, that's where I think this hand is going.

Blinds fold, UTG & +1 call.

Flop (9600 in pot) Ts4s4d

UTG & +1 check, HJ bets 4,000. Action on me. I have an overpair to a four-way paired flop with a flush draw available, and I have position. I don't think raising is advisable, and it still seems like I'm too strong here to fold. Should I call again?
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-15-2024 , 10:06 AM
I mean…folding now is obviously a huge exploit. If we have reads that HJ is a LAG or maniac then of course calling is super standard.

You’ve given no reads and my default is that avg seniors event players aren’t 3-betting remotely close to correctly. I would assume 3-bets are typically KK and AA from anyone over 60. Note - I am not a senior.

If I’m playing my A+ game I fold pre. If im playing B game I call pre and find an exploit fold OTF and then kick myself for calling pre. This all assuming no reads besides age.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-15-2024 , 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphykid67
I mean…folding now is obviously a huge exploit. If we have reads that HJ is a LAG or maniac then of course calling is super standard.

You’ve given no reads and my default is that avg seniors event players aren’t 3-betting remotely close to correctly. I would assume 3-bets are typically KK and AA from anyone over 60. Note - I am not a senior.

If I’m playing my A+ game I fold pre. If im playing B game I call pre and find an exploit fold OTF and then kick myself for calling pre. This all assuming no reads besides age.

Reads are preliminary given sample size. UTG & HJ have played solid ABC poker in the hour-plus we've been playing. +1 has been a little more active since arriving at some point in level 2.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-15-2024 , 11:10 AM
“Being that this is a seniors event I fold. Calling second best option.”

Beautiful.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-15-2024 , 11:20 AM
I would call preflop at 2200. The 3-bet sizing is awful (should be around 3200) and both UTG and UTG+1 will call. We are getting a great price to set mine and we are 7 handed so UTG is likely not too tight.

The problem though is twofold, UTG could 4-bet all in or to 8,000 and the second issue is that it will be fairly obvious what we have (though it could be TT/99/AK as well). Also the other thing to consider is that UTG won't be 4-betting with AQ/AK in a senior event and unlikely even with QQ.

On the flop we have missed our set, somebody could have TT and HJ looks like he is betting AA/KK because AK 4-way he would often check. So here I fold.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-15-2024 , 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Rick
The problem though is twofold, UTG could 4-bet all in or to 8,000 and the second issue is that it will be fairly obvious what we have (though it could be TT/99/AK as well). Also the other thing to consider is that UTG won't be 4-betting with AQ/AK in a senior event and unlikely even with QQ.
This is not a problem, but an advantage, making calling an even better option. If this is corect and we are four bet by UTG, we can very safely fold (unless it's a foolish size taht prices us in), and if we are not 4-bet by UTG herem we canb safely assume AA/KK is not in his range.

The HJ bet is tough, to me it's either AT, or an overpair. As others have pointed out, in a senior's event, it should be weighted more to overpairs ... so you are very likley behind. I fold turn.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-15-2024 , 12:38 PM
4-bet to 5k and fold to a 5-bet with JJ. I'm personally not in the business of cold calling 3-bets. If he calls, you'll have position and can control the pot better.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-15-2024 , 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by persianpunisher
4-bet to 5k and fold to a 5-bet with JJ. I'm personally not in the business of cold calling 3-bets. If he calls, you'll have position and can control the pot better.
In an early round of a small stakes seniors event this is a punt. Otherwise I’m with you.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-15-2024 , 07:16 PM
I mean, if we really think their range is KK and AA, then I guess we should fold. But I think enough of the senior crowd will click random buttons. Still would rather 4-bet than call, but I guess we can argue for a fold. Seems criminal though.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-16-2024 , 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun in VA
I recently played in the Mid Atlantic Poker Open's $360 Senior Event (50+ y.o.) held at Maryland Live! Casino. Structure was decent with a starting stack of 30,000 and 30 minute blind levels. The following three hands seemed worthy of review. I'll present them in the order they occurred, and let discussion wind down on one before moving to the next.

Hand 1

Level 3 (200/300/300 BBA) 7-handed

UTG (~20,000) raises to 800

UTG+1/LJ (~35,000) calls 800

HJ (~30,000) 3bets to 2,200.

Hero/BTN (29,000) has JhJc. Action?

Well, I went with the second best option, and called. Figured I was too strong to fold, but didn't think a 4-bet here was advisable. I've got position post-flop (if it comes to this) and unless UTG is super-strong, that's where I think this hand is going.

Blinds fold, UTG & +1 call.

Flop (9600 in pot) Ts4s4d

UTG & +1 check, HJ bets 4,000. Action on me. I have an overpair to a four-way paired flop with a flush draw available, and I have position. I don't think raising is advisable, and it still seems like I'm too strong here to fold. Should I call again?

Feels like HJ has an overpair, but it could also be AK (with a possibility of AKss or AQss). While I could fold, I decide that I want to see one more, knowing that I can win a huge pot early in the tournament if the Js rolls off. I call. UTG folds, +1 calls.

Turn (21,600) Ts4s4d 8s

+1 checks, HJ checks, and while I'll put it out for other suggestions, I'm happy to check this one back.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-16-2024 , 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun in VA
Well, I went with the second best option, and called. Figured I was too strong to fold, but didn't think a 4-bet here was advisable. I've got position post-flop (if it comes to this) and unless UTG is super-strong, that's where I think this hand is going.

Blinds fold, UTG & +1 call.

Flop (9600 in pot) Ts4s4d

UTG & +1 check, HJ bets 4,000. Action on me. I have an overpair to a four-way paired flop with a flush draw available, and I have position. I don't think raising is advisable, and it still seems like I'm too strong here to fold. Should I call again?
I agree with original feedback of fold being best option here. I'll also add to that, something I harp on with my students often- anytime you are uncertain as to what the best approach is, calling is typically the WORST option. It often exacerbates the difficult decision post flop (not unlike the situation you found yourself in) I would recommend making more judicious folds or aggressive raises anytime you are unsure and in this spot I'd lean fold.

Lastly, I would try to avoid platitudes like "my hand is too strong to fold" and instead focus on ranges. If villain is capable of 3-bet bluffing, and can have hands you are ahead of, then you simply should continue. If villain is incapable of bluffing (which is the case for many senior players and 3-betting in my experience) then I'd range him as JJ+ AK+ (maybe AQs) therefore JJ is fine to fold against such a range)
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-16-2024 , 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Rick
I would call preflop at 2200. The 3-bet sizing is awful (should be around 3200) and both UTG and UTG+1 will call. We are getting a great price to set mine and we are 7 handed so UTG is likely not too tight.

The problem though is twofold, UTG could 4-bet all in or to 8,000 and the second issue is that it will be fairly obvious what we have (though it could be TT/99/AK as well). Also the other thing to consider is that UTG won't be 4-betting with AQ/AK in a senior event and unlikely even with QQ.

On the flop we have missed our set, somebody could have TT and HJ looks like he is betting AA/KK because AK 4-way he would often check. So here I fold.
This is also a great point by Rick (and big reason why I try to advocate for little cold calling of 3-bets) when we cold call we are SO faceup as exactly 88-JJ/AK/AQs type hands, so if the 3-bettor is solid, they'll know precisely what your range is the rest of the hand and really be able to milk you when they're ahead and bluff you when they're behind.

Now against villains who aren't as perceiving and are playing more first level poker (just their cards and roughly oblivious to your range) I do think we can justify some cold calls (especially when they use bad sizing also to Rick's point)
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-16-2024 , 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dean221
I agree with original feedback of fold being best option here. I'll also add to that, something I harp on with my students often- anytime you are uncertain as to what the best approach is, calling is typically the WORST option. It often exacerbates the difficult decision post flop (not unlike the situation you found yourself in) I would recommend making more judicious folds or aggressive raises anytime you are unsure and in this spot I'd lean fold.

Lastly, I would try to avoid platitudes like "my hand is too strong to fold" and instead focus on ranges. If villain is capable of 3-bet bluffing, and can have hands you are ahead of, then you simply should continue. If villain is incapable of bluffing (which is the case for many senior players and 3-betting in my experience) then I'd range him as JJ+ AK+ (maybe AQs) therefore JJ is fine to fold against such a range)

Thanks, The_Dean, for this very useful constructive criticism. What you offer here (and in your subsequent post) makes sense, and is quite useful going forward. I'll be quite interested in seeing your thoughts when I post hands 2 and 3 as well.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-16-2024 , 08:42 PM
Fold JJ
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-17-2024 , 09:41 AM
Okay, I doubt there's any real choice on the turn, once checked to. So I check back.

River (9,600): Ts4s4d 8s Jd!!!

+1 leads for 7,000; HJ thinks for ~15 seconds and folds; I've got just over 22K in my stack, pause for 15-20 seconds, and jam. +1 calls fairly quickly, flashing A9ss and saying he should have led turn (to which I certainly would have folded) after I reveal the boat. UTG claims he had 88 (for a would-have-been turned boat), and HJ says he had QQ. Other than the smallish preflop 3bet, I think he played his hand well. A very fortunate run-out for me, despite the questionable calls pre and on the flop.

On to hand #2...

~35-40 players remain, and 18 make the money. I'm chip leader at the table with just under 600K in chips. Table is 7 handed. Blinds are 3K/6K/6K BBA.

UTG (350K) Raise to 14K (UTG has been playing fairly solid, picking up several small pots raising smallish and cbetting. Hasn't shown down much in the time we've been at the same table.)

Action folds to me on the button.

Hero/BTN (595K): JThh; Action?
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-17-2024 , 10:39 AM
H2 - Stacks behind in the blinds matter. If there is a shorty say 20bbs or less that plays well then you’re teeing up a squeeze jam for them by flatting here. Otherwise if you don’t think you will get jammed on or 3bet very often then flatting JTs on the button is mandatory at this depth (over 50bbs eff with opener). He’s UTG so we need to be a bit wary but this is still a fine spot to see a flop with position.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-17-2024 , 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by persianpunisher
4-bet to 5k and fold to a 5-bet with JJ. I'm personally not in the business of cold calling 3-bets. If he calls, you'll have position and can control the pot better.
I agree with this. I think flatting is ok with JJ here also. Folding is lol bad- I’m never folding JJ even in a senior event.

I kinda like super small 4! And fold to a 5! As the range is like QQ+ AK+ (maybe not even AK honestly). I almost think a click to 4.5-4.8k is cool here bc we can fold to a 5!. I think going proper size is wrong with 4! Bc we plan to fold to a 5!. Post flop I might take super cautious line.

Say flop was 258, I might check back to a check from 3! Bc I just don’t see value being had. We can maybe get value from AQ or AK if we check flop and bet small on good turn card where we keep overpair status.

I like click to 4.5k, plan to fold to a 5! Unless it’s super small which I would call and hope to crazy KK or AA. Idk I think we can get value from AK and some suited Broadway if we 4! Bc they shouldn’t fold suited Broadway and AK.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-17-2024 , 11:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphykid67
H2 - Stacks behind in the blinds matter. If there is a shorty say 20bbs or less that plays well then you’re teeing up a squeeze jam for them by flatting here. Otherwise if you don’t think you will get jammed on or 3bet very often then flatting JTs on the button is mandatory at this depth (over 50bbs eff with opener). He’s UTG so we need to be a bit wary but this is still a fine spot to see a flop with position.


Good point, Ralphy. I don't recall the SB's stack size, nor any reads on him. Relevant to your point, though, the BB has 120K and is competent. We played at the first table together, he got short after a tough beat, and spent the next hour or so finding spots to jam, rarely getting called, and having AQ+ 99+ when called, ultimately rebuilding his stack.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-18-2024 , 02:35 PM
H2: If UTG was young and aggro with a wide range I would 3-bet but in a senior tourney I would always call with JTs and probably fold JTo. The other reason I call in a senior tourney is that there are rarely 3-bets from the blinds.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-19-2024 , 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun in VA

On to hand #2...

~35-40 players remain, and 18 make the money. I'm chip leader at the table with just under 600K in chips. Table is 7 handed. Blinds are 3K/6K/6K BBA.

UTG (350K) Raise to 14K (UTG has been playing fairly solid, picking up several small pots raising smallish and cbetting. Hasn't shown down much in the time we've been at the same table.)

Action folds to me on the button.

Hero/BTN (595K): JThh; Action?

I called. Raising seemed like an awful overplay against an early open, and folding a hand with this much potential, my stack, and the relevant stacks seemed way too tight. SB folds (probably why I don't recall his chip stack, although I would have mentally noted it at the time), and BB calls.

Flop (51,000 in pot) Td8h7d BB checks, UTG bets 17K. Hero has top pair, gutshot straight, and backdoor flush. Action?
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-19-2024 , 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun in VA
I called. Raising seemed like an awful overplay against an early open, and folding a hand with this much potential, my stack, and the relevant stacks seemed way too tight. SB folds (probably why I don't recall his chip stack, although I would have mentally noted it at the time), and BB calls.

Flop (51,000 in pot) Td8h7d BB checks, UTG bets 17K. Hero has top pair, gutshot straight, and backdoor flush. Action?
I actually just call here in a senior tourney. In a normal tourney I will often 3x raise and check back the turn if called (like I have a 9 and/or flush draw) and call down river.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-19-2024 , 05:29 PM
I would just call, the OOP c-bet is going to be stronger than usual into multiple people, and you have solid equity and position.

I don't really care for raising this hand 60BB deep because you could be in a nasty spot if you get 3-bet, although heads up I suppose you could for value and protection and I might be thinking a little too conservatively about those spots. Multiway though I expect the raiser to play the flop more straightforwardly, so I don't expect him to be betting out a worse hand than yours here.
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote
01-20-2024 , 08:18 AM
I love the fact that everybody assumes that players in a ‘Seniors’ game are tight.
Might explain why my 3 and 4 bets get through so often.

Love hearing the chat at the table about how I must have had Aces or Kings…
MAPO Senior Open, Three Interesting Hands Quote

      
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