Hiya

Early stages of small MTT, 6 at a table that is very loose pre and passive post. Stacks are very short at this table as is typical for this tournament structure.

V has 12BB behind and is by far the most aggressive at table, crazy aggro and sticky post flop but have really only seem him bet pre with super premium hands.

H has very tight image and ~20BB behind.

Action folds to H UTG+1 with QTs who opens for 3BB. LJ calls - V in cutoff shoves all in for 8BB.


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Do we call here, fold, or shove?

Why open to 3BBs? Confused as to V's stack size -- you sat V has 12 BB and then say V shoves in CO for 8 BB. That's gonna make a huge difference.

Assuming V had 8 BB, you are priced in. What is LJ's stack? If LJ has a similar stack size to you, I think you want to reshove to isolate and put that dead money in the middle.

Assuming V had 12 BB, then it's a fold given description as TAG, betting super-premiums only.

My mistake, V stack was 12BB. HJ had similar size to my own.

What would you recommend as open?

I min-raise open here 6-handed, as it gives you a lot more room to maneuver. The only other sizing I would use is a shove with vulnerable hands likely to be ahead pre-flop from the BU or blinds. Some other players may incorporate limping into their opening strategy at these stack depths, but I don't.

At 20BB you should definitely be minraising. Fold to the jam, you aren't getting a good enough price. I too am confused by the contradictory descriptions of villain as a maniac and someone who only raises pre with big hands.

I would min raise with 20 bb's also.

Given the preflop raise size we are getting a little more than 2:1 pot odds to call (assuming there is a BB ante). I prefer a call here because I wouldn't mind a LJ call in case we hit a straight or a flush and we can always check if we miss and LJ would only be betting if they have like top pair or better. If LJ jams preflop we call and see what happens.

Given that Villain is crazy aggro it doesn't matter what hands we have already seen. We likely haven't seen some of his whacky bluffs and he has only 12 bb's so I think his range can be fairly wide.

You want to call off half your remaining stack to a shove with QTs not closing the action?

The big mistake here is opening so large with shallow stacks. You should be raising 2BB or 2.2BB and then you can fold to the 12BB shove with the player behind you. Now you have too a good price not to re-shove. You have to call 9BB to win a pot of ~29.5BB. There are so few hands that you are not getting a good enough price to fold against.

I am re-shoving this, given the way that you played it so far.

Yes.

Shoving doesn't do us much good because we are behind anyway. My hope is to almost triple up. If a T or Q hits the flop then I would jam and the other guy might just fold.

I usually do shove in these spots but then I have fold equity and a decent hand (like a PP or AK/AQ/AJ even).

Still I get I am probably wrong and I don't mind the shove. If we eliminate KQ/KJ/KT then that's a big plus.

As others have said, a 3BB open is far to much with 20BB and even shorter stacks behind you. As played you are not in great shape against COs range, but if HJ fold, you are getting 2:1, so you have kind of priced yourself in to call it off with your big open. Its close though, so it almost does not matter, if you call or fold. If you are on a single bullet only, you can fold here and look for a better spot.

And you're just calling off the rest if LJ reshoves, I take it?

Yes.

He just called our open raise so its not likely a monster. We would be getting a great price.

That part is likely true, I just wanted to make sure you were considering that.

I fold in part because I'm opening the minimum and so not getting as good a price, and because I tend to pass up on close gambles due to ICM (even in early stages, you need a little bit of a premium since the chips you put at risk are more valuable than the chips you could win).

That said, in what is apparently a shallow/quick structure, I don't mind gambling. As played you're getting better than 2:1 and you likely have the odds to call there, being 40% against AKo, flipping against 99-. But I don't open that big in the first place, and getting more like 1.8:1 I might fold, especially with someone behind me. (It's probably fine to call if no one is behind you.)

Also... OP says there are 6 at the table but describes his position as UTG+1 and a caller in the LJ, which implies 8 at the table (UTG, UTG+1, LJ, HJ, CO, BT, SB, BB).

When it goes bet/call/3-bet jam, even for 12BB, our hand isn't good enough to call. Calling here might be close to a torch even if we think the LJ rarely calls, because the CO's jam range should never be hands we dominate. At best we're maybe 35% against CO jam range and any hand LJ decides to go with probably crushes us.

Don't know the stakes but in live MTT's this CO jam range is rarely going to be something QTs is doing well against.

But the thing is, Hero is paying 9BB to win 27BB, if LJ folds, so he only need 33,3% equity against COs range. If LJ also call, Hero is paying 9BB to win 36BB and need 25%. Also LJ is on a capped range, since he initially just call, so he is not "crushing us". Against realistic ranges Hero actually has enough equity to call. But its close, and if its important for Hero to stay and play a little longer without reentering (if that is even possible), then its ok to give up on a marginal spot like this.

Anything LJ calls with is going to be, at worst, decent Ax/Kx and middle pairs that we're behind against and we still have to fade the CO. There's literally no hands that LJ backraises with in this spot that we're ahead of. LJ isn't backraising JT, for example. And there's gonna be plenty of stuff just dominates us, like KQ or AT or maybe even QJ, although I think QJ probably should fold here in LJ's spot.

You could maybe come up with a range construction for both players where we have 25% in a three-way pot, but it's gonna be close and there's also risk premiums to consider. To me this would be a spot where we compound our sizing error by making - at best - a very marginal calloff.