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(live) 3bet jam flop or c/c to showdown with overpair OOP? (live) 3bet jam flop or c/c to showdown with overpair OOP?

04-05-2023 , 05:45 AM
Hi again 2+2, had a spot in live tourney vs an unknown Villain.
No ante, nowhere near the bubble.

Folds to hero in SB with JJ and 50bb, raises to 3bb
Villain calls with about 50-60bb, unsure of exact size but approximately the same as hero's.

Flop is 2d5c6c
Hero leads 3bb (slight sizing error: solver says I should have sized up to 4 or 5 bb)
Villain raises to 6bb, Hero calls
Turn is 8h
Hero checks
Villain raises 6bb (same bet size), Hero calls
River is Ts
Hero checks
Villain raises 8bb, Hero calls

I ran this spot through a solver and it says I should have 3bet jammed with (any) overpair on that low-card board vs Villain's raise. The turn raise being the same size made me believe he just had top pair or an otherwise marginal hand. I'm wondering if this is an acceptable deviation vs an unknown Villain (didn't know if checking would induce bluffs or not), or if I should have pushed. In the moment I felt like 3bet flop jams are underdefended and I'd only get called when i was crushed, so that's why i decided to play passive and c/c. Will post outcome later

Last edited by biggestfish; 04-05-2023 at 05:51 AM.
(live) 3bet jam flop or c/c to showdown with overpair OOP? Quote
04-05-2023 , 09:50 AM
3.5bb pre tends to play better at this depth without an ante (4bb with ante). Limp to raise and stack off is also an option.

A 3bet all-in at the flop given the sizings used is just under 2x pot which is massive. Villain can comfortably fold everything that isn't 2pair+ or a combo draw/nut flush draw so we don't really get it in great. Denying equity is nice but doesn't seem worth it when we ourselves can be drawing very thin occasionally.

I'd go bigger pre and then bigger on the flop. If you get raised then it will be an easy jam with your value. As played, call, call, call looks fine. There's nowhere that raising looks good and folding anywhere seems a bit weak.

Last edited by Asjbaaaf; 04-05-2023 at 10:04 AM.
(live) 3bet jam flop or c/c to showdown with overpair OOP? Quote
04-05-2023 , 04:05 PM
outcome:
Villain shows Ac7c
(live) 3bet jam flop or c/c to showdown with overpair OOP? Quote
04-08-2023 , 04:14 PM
Yeah, you were supposed to get it in on the flop, but since you didn't, I think you played the rest of the hand fine. I also wouldn't be surprised if the solver wanted to c/r shove the turn.
(live) 3bet jam flop or c/c to showdown with overpair OOP? Quote
04-08-2023 , 09:09 PM
I would raise to 3.5x or 4x to charge bb for defending in position. Also wouldn’t mind limp strat with this hand against a villian that may raise bb semi light if we limp. I prefer raise to 3.5x at a higher % but would def like limp against aggro villian and punishing them with a raise bc hand plays much nicer at super low spr.
(live) 3bet jam flop or c/c to showdown with overpair OOP? Quote
04-11-2023 , 03:05 AM
I wouldn't jam flop because we are up against a lot of 15 out hands or hands that are sets or 2 pair.

I would jam the turn though. The 6 bb bet is a blocking type value bet size (hands like 6x/5x). I would have expected 10bb's to 12 bb's with hands that are betting for value.
(live) 3bet jam flop or c/c to showdown with overpair OOP? Quote
04-11-2023 , 04:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Rick
I wouldn't jam flop because we are up against a lot of 15 out hands or hands that are sets or 2 pair.
There are only two 15-out hands, 7c4c and 8c7c. And there probably isn't much two pair on this board except 65. Maybe the two combos of 52s; I wouldn't be surprised if 62s still folded pre. It's not really that many hands, so you have to ask yourself exactly what his raising range is instead of just assigning "a lot" to the hands that beat us. (What are the chances, for example, he flatted with an overpair to the board and he'll stack off with it?)

I don't know what the buyin is, but live I see players who more often minraise flops in position to be able to check the turn through or set a cheap price to get to showdown, which is exactly the kind of hand we want to charge here. But this would be easier with a bigger preflop raise and bigger flop bet.

To that end, and in general on this hand, I agree with Asjbaaaf's post.
(live) 3bet jam flop or c/c to showdown with overpair OOP? Quote
04-12-2023 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nath
There are only two 15-out hands, 7c4c and 8c7c. And there probably isn't much two pair on this board except 65. Maybe the two combos of 52s; I wouldn't be surprised if 62s still folded pre. It's not really that many hands, so you have to ask yourself exactly what his raising range is instead of just assigning "a lot" to the hands that beat us. (What are the chances, for example, he flatted with an overpair to the board and he'll stack off with it?)

I don't know what the buyin is, but live I see players who more often minraise flops in position to be able to check the turn through or set a cheap price to get to showdown, which is exactly the kind of hand we want to charge here. But this would be easier with a bigger preflop raise and bigger flop bet.

To that end, and in general on this hand, I agree with Asjbaaaf's post.
There are many more 15 out hands (well three of these are 14 out hands): A2s/A3s/A4s/K2s/K3s/K4s/Q2s/Q3s/Q4s all clubs.

I prefer to see what happens on the turn bet sizing wise than jam the flop. We will definitely be called on the flop by all sets, straights, and 2 pair hands (total of about 40 combos) as well as the 9 hands I just mentioned and the 2 you mentioned. Also if our intent is to jam we can see if the turn is an overcard to a J and if not and also not a club we can lead jam then.
(live) 3bet jam flop or c/c to showdown with overpair OOP? Quote

      
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