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Old 10-25-2011, 03:14 PM   #1
dmelissourgos
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Exclamation Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

Hello,
I want to grind the SnG hyper turbo 6-max satellites that have buy in $18 in pokerstars. I would like some advice on the starting hands (because we are talking about a clear push/fold strategy). So a friend of mine made a chart about it and gave it to me. We would like some opinions. Is it right? Do we need to correct something to make it more efficient?

This is for the starting stack or so. It'a about 10bb deep.

*PU = We go all in first (no other players in the pot still)
*CA = We go all in after 1 other player is already all in
*OC = We go all in after 2 or more players are already all in


Last edited by dmelissourgos; 10-25-2011 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:32 PM   #2
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

You need to consider more variables: at least the (effective) stacks in BBs (which is probably a more important variable than the position alone).

Juk
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Old 10-25-2011, 07:18 PM   #3
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

chart appears to be pretty useless to me. don't use it, there are many more variables than this chart is taking into account.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:30 PM   #4
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

The chart looks to be taken from holdemresources using the ICM Calculator. My advice to you would be to use your mind while playing rather than relying on a chart. The chart is only as good as the person's effort put into it anyways.
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:53 AM   #5
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

pretty terrible imo
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:34 AM   #6
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

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Originally Posted by Simplicity8 View Post
The chart looks to be taken from holdemresources using the ICM Calculator. My advice to you would be to use your mind while playing rather than relying on a chart. The chart is only as good as the person's effort put into it anyways.
This is true!
poker isn't a game just statistics .... but I think the charts helps to have a line.
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Old 10-26-2011, 06:01 AM   #7
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

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Originally Posted by Simplicity8 View Post
The chart looks to be taken from holdemresources using the nash Calculator. My advice to you would be to use your mind while playing rather than relying on a chart. The chart is only as good as the person's effort put into it anyways.
fyp
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Old 10-26-2011, 06:19 AM   #8
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

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Originally Posted by jukofyork View Post
You need to consider more variables: at least the (effective) stacks in BBs (which is probably a more important variable than the position alone).

Juk
This is for the starting stack or so. It'a about 10bb deep.
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Old 10-26-2011, 06:52 AM   #9
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

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Originally Posted by pokerKOSTArS View Post
This is for the starting stack or so. It'a about 10bb deep.
Just as a general obversation the pushing ranges look too loose. If you give all the players equal stacks of t500 and make the blinds t20/40, SNGwiz is suggesting a much tighter pushing range from UTG than shown in the chart.

Anyway, agree with above posts that there are more considerations, such as varying stack sizes and players' tendancies that need to be taken into account than just your position in deciding whether to push/fold a 10bb stack.
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Old 10-26-2011, 01:30 PM   #10
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

Thank you all for your answers.

Well, I am talking about grinding those SnG's so that means I would play from 9-16 tables simultaneously. I wish I could use my head and not my memory (because I will memorize the chart) to make decisions, but it's kind of impossible with such multitabling in hyper turbos. I want to grind those satellites because the game becomes more push/fold therefore more simplified, so there are less variables (players' styles, tedencies, previous results, etc). I agree I can't play just with charts, but everything is pretty standard in the beginning with effective stacks of 10bbs. I want to give volume mostly to benefit from the rakeback. I am saying all that because I don't think there is room for quality poker in hyper turbos, which simplifies things. Any ranges different than what I already have would be highly appreciated.
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:40 PM   #11
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmelissourgos View Post
Thank you all for your answers.

Well, I am talking about grinding those SnG's so that means I would play from 9-16 tables simultaneously. I wish I could use my head and not my memory (because I will memorize the chart) to make decisions, but it's kind of impossible with such multitabling in hyper turbos. I want to grind those satellites because the game becomes more push/fold therefore more simplified, so there are less variables (players' styles, tedencies, previous results, etc). I agree I can't play just with charts, but everything is pretty standard in the beginning with effective stacks of 10bbs. I want to give volume mostly to benefit from the rakeback. I am saying all that because I don't think there is room for quality poker in hyper turbos, which simplifies things. Any ranges different than what I already have would be highly appreciated.
so basically you don't care about poker only money is your interest. You don't want to think just applied cooking receipe and be sure that you will have 5% ROI. Sorry dude it's not working like that
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Old 10-26-2011, 06:39 PM   #12
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

Push/fold chart=very exploitable and often times incorrect play as it does not adjust to game dynamic etc. For instance, what if you are on the bubble and there is a super shorty but the chart says to push into a big stack? No brainer fold imo. If you use the chart as a jumping off point as to where your range should start ok, but don't just say 22 UTG, the charts says push...ok. Cuz that is exploitable and you need to adjust to your opponents.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:50 AM   #13
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmelissourgos View Post
Thank you all for your answers.

Well, I am talking about grinding those SnG's so that means I would play from 9-16 tables simultaneously. I wish I could use my head and not my memory (because I will memorize the chart) to make decisions, but it's kind of impossible with such multitabling in hyper turbos. I want to grind those satellites because the game becomes more push/fold therefore more simplified, so there are less variables (players' styles, tedencies, previous results, etc). I agree I can't play just with charts, but everything is pretty standard in the beginning with effective stacks of 10bbs. I want to give volume mostly to benefit from the rakeback. I am saying all that because I don't think there is room for quality poker in hyper turbos, which simplifies things. Any ranges different than what I already have would be highly appreciated.
No offense to you, but if I got the right, you're a total beginner in SNGs. Therefore you will definitely NOT be able to be 9-16 tabling hypter turbos profitably.

"I am saying all that because I don't think there is room for quality poker in hyper turbos" - totally wrong!
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:59 AM   #14
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmess0 View Post
Push/fold chart=very exploitable and often times incorrect play as it does not adjust to game dynamic etc. For instance, what if you are on the bubble and there is a super shorty but the chart says to push into a big stack? No brainer fold imo. If you use the chart as a jumping off point as to where your range should start ok, but don't just say 22 UTG, the charts says push...ok. Cuz that is exploitable and you need to adjust to your opponents.
nash equilibrium is, by definition, unexploitable.

It's not always optimal though. Usually you should push more.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:53 AM   #15
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

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Originally Posted by PIK4CHU View Post
nash equilibrium is, by definition, unexploitable.
Yes, but also that chart does not represent an actual Nash equilibrium for any game of poker that is played in the real world. If you play according to that chart, you will be exploitable.
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Old 10-27-2011, 06:59 AM   #16
dmelissourgos
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

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Originally Posted by Ratounet View Post
so basically you don't care about poker only money is your interest. You don't want to think just applied cooking receipe and be sure that you will have 5% ROI. Sorry dude it's not working like that
I prefer other forms of poker to play good and improve my game, such as cash games. I want to try this only for money, yes. With a small (if any) ROI and a lot of rakeback.

Last edited by dmelissourgos; 10-27-2011 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:02 AM   #17
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

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Originally Posted by urinpain View Post
No offense to you, but if I got the right, you're a total beginner in SNGs. Therefore you will definitely NOT be able to be 9-16 tabling hypter turbos profitably.
No I'm not a beginner in SnG's. I'm a beginner in hyper turbo SnG's. And of coarse I will start with 4 tables, then move up to 6, etc. I'm saying I hope I will be playing 9-16 tables because this is how many I can play in normal or turbo SnG's and cash games.

Last edited by dmelissourgos; 10-27-2011 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:08 AM   #18
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmess0 View Post
Push/fold chart=very exploitable and often times incorrect play as it does not adjust to game dynamic etc. For instance, what if you are on the bubble and there is a super shorty but the chart says to push into a big stack? No brainer fold imo. If you use the chart as a jumping off point as to where your range should start ok, but don't just say 22 UTG, the charts says push...ok. Cuz that is exploitable and you need to adjust to your opponents.
This is an example that we easily fold. But as I said before this chart is only for the starting stacks or so. In different situations there is no other solution that use my brain.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:33 AM   #19
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

^There is an edit function or if needed a multi-quote button. Please use those functions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dmelissourgos View Post
No I'm not a beginner in SnG's. I'm a beginner in hyper turbo SnG's. And of coarse I will start with 4 tables, then move up to 6, etc. I'm saying I hope I will be playing 9-16 tables because this is how many I can play in normal or turbo SnG's and cash games.
It's absolutely unlcear to me how you can beat any form of SNGs and be asking about that chart (or a chart in general).
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:54 AM   #20
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

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Originally Posted by urinpain View Post
^There is an edit function or if needed a multi-quote button. Please use those functions.
Thanks I'll use them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by urinpain View Post
It's absolutely unlcear to me how you can beat any form of SNGs and be asking about that chart (or a chart in general).
I don't think I am a very good player but I don't think I need extraordinary skills to beat micro SnG's of 1 or 2 tables. Anyway SnG's are not even my game. I play cash games SH and HU in other clients.
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:20 AM   #21
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

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Originally Posted by PIK4CHU View Post
nash equilibrium is, by definition, unexploitable.

It's not always optimal though. Usually you should push more.
interesting. I actually didn't know this. I don't understand though, if someone pushes every hand XX+ in any situation with <10BB can't you call with a range YY+ everytime?

Where: XX+ = His pushing range
YY+ = Your calling range that you gain the most equity with

I am pretty new to nash so you'll have to excuse my ignorance.
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:35 AM   #22
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

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Originally Posted by bmess0 View Post
interesting. I actually didn't know this. I don't understand though, if someone pushes every hand XX+ in any situation with <10BB can't you call with a range YY+ everytime?

Where: XX+ = His pushing range
YY+ = Your calling range that you gain the most equity with

I am pretty new to nash so you'll have to excuse my ignorance.
Yes, if someone pushes with an optimal range, there is an optimal range that you can call with.

My understanding is that the Nash optimal pushing range for varying stack sizes heads up is often very wide, which would require a wide optimal calling range.

However, apparently in practice most players dont push as wide or call as wide as Nash suggests.

So, it becomes correct to push wider when pushing, and call narrower when calling.
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:51 AM   #23
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

^As far as Hoods article goes, they aren't that far off the NASH ranges. Check that.

(PS: I tried to chek my own DB like Hood did, but I wasn't able to, because HEM reports stats seem to be wrong! If anyone could help me out there, that would be highly appreciated!)
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:37 PM   #24
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

Nash nash nash. How many people actually understand what it means?

Nash is "unexploitable" - yeah it would be unexploitable if poker was played by "nash" rules , that is only PUSH or FOLD. Only , that kinda limits your options to play AA or 67s for example doesn't it?

If players were presented two buttons: [push] or [fold] by poker client, nash would rule the world and noone would be playing, since its easily solvable, and writing a perfect bot would take a moment.

Once there is any other option, like say Limp, minraise, raise, and a consequence of it, like check, call and 3 bet game any Nash chart becomes useless right at that moment, unless we are looking at headsup situation with super short stacks, and even there limping can make life hard for opponent at times, for example.

Lets say someone is playing according to nash only from sb and from bb at 10bb.
Imagine that his opponent though isn't sticking to just 2 moves , push or fold, how unexploitable our Nash guy is?
he cant even complete sb, poor boy.

I guess ill write more about it when I can...

Last edited by Q; 10-27-2011 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 10-27-2011, 04:39 PM   #25
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Re: Hyper Turbo Hand Chart

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Originally Posted by Q.. View Post
Nash nash nash. How many people actually understand what it means?

Nash is "unexploitable" - yeah it would be unexploitable if poker was played by "nash" rules , that is only PUSH or FOLD. Only , that kinda limits your options to play AA or 67s for example doesn't it?

If players were presented two buttons: [push] or [fold] by poker client, nash would rule the world and noone would be playing, since its easily solvable, and writing a perfect bot would take a moment.

Once there is any other option, like say Limp, minraise, raise, and a consequence of it, like check, call and 3 bet
game any Nash chart becomes useless right at that moment, unless we are looking at headsup situation with super short stacks, and even there limping can make life hard for opponent at times, for example.

Lets say someone is playing according to nash only from sb and from bb at 10bb.
Imagine that his opponent though isn't sticking to just 2 moves , push or fold, how unexploitable our Nash guy is?
he cant even complete sb, poor boy.

I guess ill write more about it when I can...
wtf are those?
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