Legends of Poker $540 Buy-In freezeout,blinds 200/400/75 ante, I have T7025 and BB has about 12K, I raise to 1500 UTG w/ AsQs and only the BB calls, flop is 8TJ, BB checks and I quickly bet my stack of big chips which effectively puts me all in except for 525 chips, BB says all in and I call the rest. He turns over JT and I miss my double gutshot. I realize in hindsight I should've checked the flop and tried to hit the straight for free. Then do I fold to a 2K bet on the turn (which was a 3)? Thoughts on the way I played it?

Pretty bad I'd say. If you had a full table, preflop pot was 1350- Easy shove for your stack IMO. If you are averse to shipping it pre, raise smaller, like 1100 or 1200. Then you can possibly cbet/ fold leaving you with ~4k. I think shipping it pre is much better than that line though.

What is unquestionably bad is making a preflop bet that isn't folding out enough worse hands, then effectively pushing all in as a cbet with A high. If it were me though, I'd ship every time and probably lose to AK or something.

Disclaimer: I suck at poker, this is most likely wrong.

Raise less pre. 1100 or 1200 is fine.

Betting a little more than 1/2 pot and folding to shove is fine on the flop, but mostly I'm checking behind that flop hoping to hit my gutshot for free. He bets the turn for sure and I'll mostly fold.

Definetly a defendable line. Only thing to think about is the hand that's good on that flop is usually going to hold up, you can't be giving many outs to a hand that you're ahead of. Maybe you could check behind, maybe not, I'd probably flip a coin or something I like to change it up here unless you have a soul read on this guy.

After all, you weren't in bad shape against just a pair, easy to give advice after you see what he has though. I'd make the same move about 50% of the time.

Edit:
p.s. I don't mind the pf raise here, as long as you're shoving most of the flops you see. If you want to get more play out of it you obviously raise a little less, but it depends on whether your post flop play is strong or not, table dynamics, etc. This hand's kind of situational, esp. at that level.

Brad: Level??

Nope. If he wants to play small ball that's the way to do it.

But yeah, I would just shove it pre cause that's how I roll.

Meh, if you have pot it and he shoves you are breaking nearly even against shoving range.

The oversized raise pre messed the whole hand up.

Raise 1025 pre - check behind on flop, call 2k turn bet, fold river. You want to play small ball you use POT CONTROL - you don't bet fold your stack. Brad that's a terrible line and you know it.

Psyco I think we agree raising smaller and checking behind flop is the best small ball line. I don't like calling off 1/3 our stack on the turn and having to fold most rivers though.

I think the best play is to shove pre.

My comment about breaking even is that betting and calling a shove is pretty much neutral, not that it is a good line.

You tell me you don't like calling off 1/3rd your stack and folding to a river bet, yet here you advocate betting what amounts to HALF your stack and folding to a shove?

If we raise to 1200 pre and put out, say, 1400 on the flop, we still have 5800 behind. C-betting our belly buster and overs is just as standard as checking behind. If he shoves we are pretty much even money so calling or folding is by definition, not "bad."

But, if we can see a free turn card we can potentially turn a neutral decision into a +cev decision, so my preference would be check and see a free turn card.

Ok, i hear you that you advocate checking behind on flop. But if you feel it's the most optimal move being +cEV, while cbetting and folding to a shove is 0EV, then say that it's better to check behind.

The way i read your posts was that you advocate firing a Cbet out there and folding to a shove. When in reality you meant it is 0EV, and checking behind is the more optimal +cEV play.

Checking the flop is by definition also a neutral cev play. But, it allows you to make an easier decision on the turn because the equity of your hand will either incease or decrease depending on the turn card. So you can avoid a -cev situation or take advantage of a +cev situation as it presents. In this sense, checking the flop is +cev but only because it allows you to make a better + or - decision on later streets instead of taking a neutral gamble.

Thanks for the input. It was either 8 or 9-handed, I'm not sure but it def was not 10 handed. The guy (BB) was the loosest/most agressive player at the table almost to the point of being reckless who had just been moved there and showed a bluff on his 2nd hand. He was annoying the table after that by saying, "Be careful! Be careful!"

After reading the replies and thinking about the hand some more, I think the optimal line is raising it to 1000 pre, checking behind on the flop taking the free card, and folding to a bet on the turn. My preflop raise was too big, and not a chance in hell I'm shoving there since I'll win a somewhat insignificant pot some of the time and get picked off more often than not. Agreed?

I'd just ship it pre and add 15% to my stack 90% of the time.

Dude if you bet 1200 pre and 1400 on flop that leaves us with 4425, not 5800.

My math is all kinds of bad today.

Better reason to ship it pre since you have no room to manuever post flop.

This. I wonder if shoving here is even mathematically unexploitable? If it is, there's a lot to be said for removing the possibility that you'll make a mistake.

Had a sorta similar hand at a final table today. Not sure if I played it well.

Poker Stars $11+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t1000/t2000 Blinds - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: t35023
Hero (MP): t58339
CO: t24095
BTN: t57975
SB: t23290
BB: t49481

Pre Flop: Hero is MP with A Q
1 fold, Hero raises to t5000, 3 folds, BB calls t3000

Flop: (t12200) J 6 T (2 players)
BB bets t4000, Hero calls t4000

Turn: (t20200) 2 (2 players)
BB bets t8000, Hero folds

say it's 8-handed which it may have been, pushing AQ into 7 people is suicide I've found. And it isn't worth picking up the 1350 cuz it's not like ur in significantly better shape w/ 8375 vs. 7025.

ship it pre and theres not much else to discuss imo

1200 bet pre would be find given ante + position or shoving (M 5.5 ish) are both fine.

Check behind flop.

As for brad's hand. Sometimes I call, sometimes I will raise it up to 16K and be committed to a shove. I raise to 16K because the 4K lead is so weak, I'm the pf raiser and he may be betting for information, so let's tell him he's beat. Its the final table, let's have our way.

I wouldn't shove pf since the blinds won't improve your stack enough. Also, if you just want to shove pf you should wait until the blinds pass and then shove in LP to steal the blinds. This hand is strong enough to play a flop with.
The pf rais should be whatever the table has set as standard and players are folding to.

How I would play after the flop depends on how I view the rest of the table. If you can get away with stealing the blinds to your left then I would just take the freecard on turn. But if the table is tough to play and you struggle to keep alive then I'd shove the flop and gamble it up.

Also, I'd rather you didn't show how the hand ended. Just leave it at where the BB checked and let us go from there.

I advocate a smaller raise pre to. Even tough shoving aint bad play I really dont like shiping 15+BB on a strong hand like that.

But on the flop I can only see one move and that is shoving the stack.

By shoving you maximize your FE and you hand is pretty strong with minimum 8 outs. with 2 overcards you can have as much as 14 outs.

Shoving might fold a lot of hands that has you beat such as AK, AT, 99 and fold out some draws that would split with you. Ofcourse a toptwo hand wont fold but you really dont have any indication of him being that strong.

Best +EV I belive you get from shoving the flop where the combination of FE och EV in hand makes the best profit.