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It Happened! It Happened!

08-18-2023 , 11:51 AM
We've all heard this hypothetical. Playing the main event, it folds to the SB, who shoves, and shows you AK. Do you call with a pair?

Playing a $200 daily at Resorts World, I overlimped on the button with 33, BB shoved for 60BB, and the first limper folded. Before I could act, Villain showed AKs, and said how he hated that hand.

This isn't nearly as good as the generally used AKo vs QQ; Villain was suited and my pair was much weaker, so, I am only about 50.5% to win here. I had about 100B, but decided to fold anyway, skill advantage, etc...
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08-18-2023 , 02:29 PM
Not enough dead money in the pot.

33 is different to QQ also.

The thing about QQ is that you are unlikely to be counter-fitted and remove straight possibilities from AK as well.

It is not a popular opinion but I think it is ok to pass up some high variance spots if you have an easy table where you can consistently pick up chips. At a tough table I will take flips if there is some dead money in the pot to sweeten the deal.
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08-18-2023 , 11:06 PM
In a vacuum (w/o ICM) it's a clear call: you have complete information regarding the equity and pot odds which dictate that a call is +cEV.

That you could edge pass such a spot is certainly debatable. IMO, If you edge pass too much, you end up passing your edge. Another factor is that with a larger stack you can prolong the execution of your edge.

You would only need 48.3% equity to be breaking even on a call, so you are profiting significantly here (assuming the jam was exactly 60bb and there's no ante). I suppose if losing the pot reduces your chances of cashing moreso than winning the pot increases your chances of cashing you could lean more towards a fold, as a sort of long-term ICM implication.
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08-20-2023 , 12:38 PM
I don't think you are at 50.5% to win here against AKs. I think it is very close to 50% and 33 may actually be behind by a little. I know 22 is.

The key to this spot for me is that it is a $200 event which I will be rebuying if I am felted.

You don't mention what the blinds are or whether the rebuy period has ended.

I think I call here every time if I can rebuy. I never call with 33 in these type of spots because the jammer can have an overpair, but once we find out there is no overpair and there are two limps a SB and a BB ante I think its got to be a call.

I think Asjbaaf is on target with the calling when you have an edge thing. The reason Moneymaker won was because even though Farha actually called out Moneymaker's hand when it was HU and Moneymaker had jammed the river with a bluff, Farha probably thought with such a big edge he would likely win. But part of his big edge was knowing when to call a bluff...

This case is just you have an edge EV wise so its got to be a call. I like it because if we double up with an edge thats a good thing. And also in a $200 tourney its going to go turbo at some earlyish point and doubling up will make it easier to navigate later.
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08-20-2023 , 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Rick
I don't think you are at 50.5% to win here against AKs. I think it is very close to 50% and 33 may actually be behind by a little. I know 22 is.

The key to this spot for me is that it is a $200 event which I will be rebuying if I am felted.

You don't mention what the blinds are or whether the rebuy period has ended.

I think I call here every time if I can rebuy. I never call with 33 in these type of spots because the jammer can have an overpair, but once we find out there is no overpair and there are two limps a SB and a BB ante I think its got to be a call.

I think Asjbaaf is on target with the calling when you have an edge thing. The reason Moneymaker won was because even though Farha actually called out Moneymaker's hand when it was HU and Moneymaker had jammed the river with a bluff, Farha probably thought with such a big edge he would likely win. But part of his big edge was knowing when to call a bluff...

This case is just you have an edge EV wise so its got to be a call. I like it because if we double up with an edge thats a good thing. And also in a $200 tourney its going to go turbo at some earlyish point and doubling up will make it easier to navigate later.
22 is slightly behind AKs only if neither of the deuces is the same suit as the AKs. It’s a bit ahead when one of them is the same suit as the AK. Threes are ahead regardless of suits - about 50.6% when neither is the suit of the AK, a few tenths of a percent higher when one of the threes is the same suit as the AK.
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11-14-2023 , 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asjbaaaf
In a vacuum (w/o ICM) it's a clear call: you have complete information regarding the equity and pot odds which dictate that a call is +cEV.

That you could edge pass such a spot is certainly debatable. IMO, If you edge pass too much, you end up passing your edge. Another factor is that with a larger stack you can prolong the execution of your edge.

You would only need 48.3% equity to be breaking even on a call, so you are profiting significantly here (assuming the jam was exactly 60bb and there's no ante). I suppose if losing the pot reduces your chances of cashing moreso than winning the pot increases your chances of cashing you could lean more towards a fold, as a sort of long-term ICM implication.
In a vacuum, this is only a call for CeV. Even on the first hand of the tournament there is some risk premium. I recall a 1.5% as the number for a 'standard' tournament.
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11-14-2023 , 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asjbaaaf
You would only need 48.3% equity to be breaking even on a call, so you are profiting significantly here (assuming the jam was exactly 60bb and there's no ante).
He said he overlimped, so ante or no ante, there's going to be other dead money in the pot.

I think that makes this a call.

I know it's not technically an ICM concern, but given the time / opportunity cost of playing live, I would call if I can re-enter, certainly. If it's a freezeout, I would have to consider what I think my edge is and what I would be doing with my time if I busted.
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11-15-2023 , 05:07 AM
What's starting stack and average stack at this point? I'm presuming it's still super early.

If a starting stack is 100BB or more, I'm always fine with calling. (Probably true for some lower value, too-- maybe as low as 50BB, given that it's 60BB effective and I'd still have 40BB left.)

It's only later where I might pass the edge. If a starting stack is like 20-30BB somehow and you've both run yours up, I'd be more reluctant to put that much of my advantage over the field at risk in such a close spot.t
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11-15-2023 , 09:16 AM
Starting stacks was 20BB. We were both above average at this point.
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