Firstly, sorry if this is the wrong place to post this but I have had quick look for some general micro MTT strategy threads and can't find anything particularly up to date.

I have recently started playing a lot MTTs, having predominantly been a cash player but only at micro stacks (<$25 NL). Bankroll of around $1k but can supplement this from my day job - my main aim is to practice at micros ($3-$11) and eventually play higher stakes. After some early success, I have gone on a bit of a downswing and am now at just 4% ROI over 200+ tournaments. Hardly seems worth it!



I suspect this is perfectly normal but I see comments about being able to beat micro tournaments comfortably and therefore I'm concerned that this more than just variance, so I'm looking for a bit of perspective and advice about whether I should persist with learning a balanced GTO approach or become more exploitative. I also wondered if I have any obvious leaks from the stats below and whether the 7.7 BB/100 is reasonable in tournaments (clearly this is excellent in cash games but obviously there is no rake in tournaments and outcomes are all weighted towards the final stages where perhaps I am lacking). I accept the sample size may be on the low side as well.



My general thoughts / approach is currently:


1) Pre-flop I aim to play as close to GTO as I can. I spend a lot of time reviewing using ICMIZER and GTO Wizard (free post flop) and feel I am making 80-90% correct decisions. Given population tends to be tighter (certainly mid-late stage) should I perhaps be open shoving wider and calling/4-betting tighter, particularly if Hud stats support this?, i.e. if I have 88 and BB squeezes for 25bb, I am probably supposed to call but I feel they are always at top of their range and I would be better off waiting for a cleaner spot.

2) Post-flop is where I feel I am playing sub-optimally. Are there any cost effective resources to learn/practice this. I think I am okay on the flop in terms of understanding which flops to bet at which size/frequency but turn and river I find much more difficult. I seem to regularly get stacked by coolers / strong holdings vs nutted hands at low SPRs. Again, maybe at these stakes I should over bluff and over fold as we near the mid / late stages because population is more value driven? I will probably post a couple of examples separately.

3) Multi way / Open limped pots - These are plentiful at this stakes and it is rare to actually get heads up in early stages which means I only really play for value barring the occasional bluffing spot. Is this simply a reality and therefore you need to just rely on getting good cards and go for value but otherwise play tight in early stages which may mean you blind out towards a short stack?

4) Variance - I play predominantly on poker stars and many of the tournaments are 1k plus fields with lots of crazy play in early stages. The 'run good' required to get a deep run and a big score ($500+) seems insurmountable at times. Is this just something I need to accept and if I want lower variance I just play somewhere with smaller fields or is it possible to regularly run deep in things like the Stars Big $11 or $7.50 bounty builder where fields are 2-3k plus.

5) Turbos - How much do these increase the variance and should they generally be avoided? I see most pros are happy playing turbos and given I feel my pre-flop is where I have most edge at the moment vs the field I'm happy to play them but the amount of luck required to get any kind of deep run is kind of frustrating.

6) Late Registration - Is this something that is generally advisable at these stakes given we miss the opportunity to play with the spewiest players and what BB level would be your lowest entry level. Would you ever do it for bounty builders?

Apologies for the long post but I could do with a reality check on whether I'm as good (or as bad) as I think I am and thought some of these general thoughts and discussion points might be useful for other Micro MTT players.

Variance in MTTs is huge, and 200 is a very small sample. Try to play around a bit with the variance calculator at Pokerdope.com.

Thanks, will give that a whirl. I guess I just need to persevere and keep the faith.

Has anyone used DTO, particularly for post flop work? Seems to be more cost effective than some of the other solver based options.

Also, I see BBZ is heavily promoted by the stars streamers, which again is a MTT focussed trainer. I have been using upswing but this is more geared towards cash and quite expensive for the relatively low level of MTT content.

I saw someone mention raise your edge but this is too expensive for me atm.

Hey,

First off, as mentioned 200 MTTs means literally nothing so I wouldn't bother trying to analyse ROIs from that. Similarly 23k hands is on the low side, especially for trying to determine win rate. That said, 7bb is pretty good but improvable at micros.

I think Q1 is a bit broad. Sometimes I'd be happy to snap a 25bb squeeze, sometimes not so much, depending on positions and the players.

Q2 is again quite broad but you are supposed to be getting coolered pretty often at low SPRs. Generally speaking overbluffing and overfolding is likely good against population but again very generalised of course.

Multiway pots is too big a topic to go into here but there are strategies beyond just giving up a tonne. In terms of variance, I like to mix in some small field stuff in order to gain more experience in the late stages and FTs. I personally avoid turbos just because there's enough normal stuff to play but there's nothing wrong with them. Late regging is also fine, but should be avoided in PKOs since a big portion of the prize pool will be gone by the time you register. It's also important to be covering people so coming in with below average isn't the best idea.

In terms of study tools, there's a tonne to choose from now. I really like DTO. I think they have the best sims and it's a fun way to learn. I recommend GTO Wizard because it's just all in one and has everything you need to study and practice. These both fall under tools where you have to do the heavy lifting though - you're not really going to get any answers without exploring yourself. Your other options are coaching or a coaching site. Coaching sites are the most cost effective as you get a tonne of material for low investment. I like RunItOnce. Coaching is a bigger investment but can save you a lot of time and energy and help you see quicker improvement. GL!

Thanks - Really appreciate the feedback. This mostly aligns with my understanding but useful to get some reassurance. I think bubble / ~final table ICM is another area I need to look at because I'm currently very Chip EV in my thinking.

I will keep persevering and will start posting a few of my less solvable hands.

Since it hasn't been touched on-- other than in PKOs, late registration is basically always good.

Thanks.

Is that just because one double up and you’ve usually got a pretty playable stack and not that far from the money?

I usually don’t late reg if my starting stack is going to be less than 25bb but is that too nitty?

Late reg leads to a lower ROI/higher variance - surely better than not playing at all, but some things to consider.

OP - I would focus on smaller field/deeper structure MTTs as the variance is much lower. Also talking about GTO in small stake tournaments is not ideal - when you're playing against highly exploitable opponents you want to play highly exploitable.

ICMizer is a great tool for learning push-fold ranges, but the program also has limitations. For instance it assume, that people can only push or fold, while in reality everyone have a BB calling range, when they are 25BB deep. So when BB do in fact squeeze for 25BB, thats not the NASH range, its some other range, and you need to guess that and put it into the program yourself. And then 88 might very well be a fold, if realistically its always a big pair or AQ/AK.

Coming from a cash game background you need to learn to adjust to shorter stack sizes and ICM. Smaller bet sizes are generally more effective in tournaments because of these factors and are one of the main adjustments to be made. Pot control is also very important in high ICM situations. In a cash game a dollar won or lost is a dollar won or lost (apart from the rake), so you only need to be good 51% of the time when called to make a profit by betting the river. But this is not the case in tournaments, where the value of chips won is significantly less than the value of chips lost, when you play for a big percentage of your stack. And for that reason the value of pot control goes up, unless you can shove all-in with fold equity and put the pressure on your opponent.

Yes its simply a reality. The upside is, that sometimes you can dubble your stack having been involved in very few hands, if for instance you flop a set, and someone just cant fold their second best hand. The early stage is all about getting paid with your big hands.

No its not possible to regularly run deep in 2-3k fields. I only have two $500+ cashes on Stars, and there is almost a full year between them. Fields are smaller in the european morning hours.

A turbo structure does cap the ROI, but its easier to find time for them, and if the field is soft, they can still be profitable to play.

Some amount of late registration is acceptable to get tables up and running. But there is no reason to deliberately wait, if you are already playing and want to enter a tournament, which is to begin in 10 minutes. Then just register now and play from hand 1. Coming from a cash game background you will have a huge edge on the field playing with a deep stack. With PKOs the price pool is diluted, every time someone is knocked out, so with those you always want to show up on time or at least within the first few blind levels.

Sort of, yeah. It's because you gain a lot of equity from all the players who have already busted. (And, yes, part of that is being so close to the money at the point you enter-- much easier to get to at least a cash than if you enter early.)

Endgame Poker Strategy suggests the exact opposite is true.

1) I think following GTO is fine for pre-flop but I cannot stress enough over the years how many low/mid stakes players I've seen try to implement GTO strategies to their games to a fault. It's important to remember that ppl you are playing are FAR from optimal themselves therefore the strategies aren't applicable. Focus on exploitative strategy- max punish your opponents for their mistakes!

2) I'd focus on studying villain ranges/tendencies; this is another one that I think is problematic as most of the learning content out there is designed for GTO approaches or high stakes reg playing high stakes reg (and just isn't relavent to low stakes strat) The better you get at ranging the villains, the easier it will be for you to cultivate an exploitative strategy around their mistakes that will yield you the most EV.

3) You nailed it on multi way pots- one adjustment is to learn when to iso correctly and when to join the fray (some hands can play ok as an over-limp against these populations!)

4) The best student I've ever had played $33 abi and made $110k+ profit in one year. The way he did this was playing on 9 different sites and GRINDING to fight that variance you speak of. It's possible to play a month straight of great poker on Pokerstars and not even sniff the final 3 tables of a MTT. That student however, only played ~15% of his overall volume on Stars, thus focusing instead on smaller (softer) sites where he'd make more runs, more FTs, and get more experience. Can't emphasize enough the importance of this, not to mention, it builds confidence! Poker is hard enough, we don't need that self-doubt creeping in every time we are on a slight downer (this helps avoid that).

5) I don't have any strong takes on turbos just that I'd be careful mixing turbo with regular speed (just like Id be careful mixing MTTs and cash at same time); it's two different games and once the turbo gets near the bubble it will inevitably require more attn and take away from other tables.

6) Late Registration - this is one I'm admittedly torn on, I've always been in the camp that the stronger my skill edge, the earlier I want to start the tournament (for obvious reasons some stated above), but I have had a student in the last 2 years who has profitted almost 200k playing $22-$109+ utilizing only a max late reg strategy. So while it is something I have been long against (citing skill edge etc) there clearly is some evidence to the contary that perhaps some late reg strategies might be effective nowadays, especially in the current climate (5 hour late reg being a normal thing)

Hope this helps, best of luck!

My biggest reasons to not max late reg-- and I usually only max late reg the bigger buyins in my bankroll's range, I'll play smaller ones earlier-- is not just for the edge I might have against the field, but also because my goal is to get as many buyins in action as possible to outrun the variance. So if I get into a small buyin big-field tournament earlier and it goes badly, I can fire again. I've done pretty well on late-reg tournaments, though, because the early game just means so relatively little to your outcome.

Ya I think this is really well stated and was just having this conversation in Vegas with a friend last week and he echoed these sentiments. I do think if we are talking about singular bullets, the late reg does become far more intriguing (since even with a big skill edge, oftentimes we won't be alive off that 1 bullet by the time late reg ends)

Yeah, if you have only one bullet, I think max late reg is the most profitable strategy.

You bust a lot, but short stacks are easy to play if you have your ranges down, and at least online you usually only need somewhere between half and 2/3 the remaining field to bust to make the money-- you've already outlasted 60-70% of the field just by getting in at the last second.