Very well said.

seems like zj deserves more credit for his pf 3bet. i mean, what is openers realistic range? seems like it should be relatively tight. also, that's a big 3bet ip. my nitty read here is aa or kk. boom. shocking.
also, after flop call, the weakest op looks like is aqs. i'm prolly not suicide bluffing against that range.

also, i like 4betting pf.

No no no no

what do you think op's range is after pf and flop call?

Please stop. You're not zj and we don't know his image of charder (then)... and it's not even close to that simple.

you may be the only person in this thread who smokes more than i do...

also, you seem to think zj is prahlad. i have a different perspective.

Laughed heartily.

[QUOTE=kleath;37183908]Really wanted to just give a smug one liner for this but ill give a couple quick notes

-You're giving neither ZJ or charder credit for having even half a brain for thinking that its as simplistic as "hes got 2 pair ill only bet better" or "LOL TOP 2 CALL ANY BET LOL"

-c/r flop on this board with no history makes no sense, you fold out his bluffs or let him play very well vs us in position vs anything that flats, you hate more than half the turn cards that come when he calls cause theyre either strong for his range or limit the amount of worse hands you get value from

-leading turn is absolutely horrendous without significant history that would make ZJ think charders floating flop with air or turning something into a bluff, as is its extremely hard for it to NOT be value on this board, T9 is one of the few bluff hands you can rep, its very doubtful charder is check calling oop with many gutshots or dry floats vs a good player, leading just accomplishes nothing.

I've been thinking about this hand for a week, and I can't seem to let it go.

c/c the flop is a little like saying I have an Ace with no draw. When you c/r the flop, you keep your entire range of hands together which is: AsXs, 77,88,AA,AKo, AQo, (maybe not AQo) and maybe 78suited.

Justin's c-bet means nothing, he's probably betting 100% of the flops with this amount, I think it's important to define his hand at least once. The A-spades is such a powerful card in this situation, that it will probably never be profitable for Justin to shove with a draw, when he could quite easily have a dominated hand and a dominated draw.

I think there is a good number of hands that most players would fold here, especially hands like KK, QQ etc that might have alot of value if a spade comes on the turn. Essentially Justin's range to continue in the hand is the same as yours except you have the A-spades.

When you lead the turn your still keeping your range together and putting the test to Justin rather than the reverse.

They way you played the hand, you need to make a decision at the turn to fold or call the turn call the river.
You are not getting priced to hit your hand by calling the turn (when you are behind), and Justin has sized the turn to shove the river on a non-spade.

In general I don't like getting 10XBB into the pot PF OOP when the stacks are this shallow, esp w/ a holding where I am less likely to give up on TP.

Thank you for not making a one-line response. I'm very busy, and I don't want to participate if people are just going to be rude.

-loc

Can't believe someone paid for the information ; so obvious what ZJ had there.

I will teach you how to do consistently good high fives.

I assume this is an offer for the information?

Normally this would be a very valuable offer, but Dan Burdick already told me the secret!

Also, I despise high fives

BUMP for this worthy thread

So glad I decided to sort all the threads by the amount of views to find this gem!

A bit saddened tbh to read 30 pages only to not end up hearing the results (your hand) NAME YOUR PRICE JUSTIN!

Read this from start to finish and it's the best thread I've read in the whole Tournament Poker sub forum that's for sure and reading unrealzeals take on the hand provided LOLs throughout the read and a couple of others giving their opinions

It's great to hear you explain parts of the hand in detail Charders & Justin
Pretty hilarious when people started saying the whole "you shouldn't 4b against me oop" is some kind of levelling war and is just your attempt at saving yourself the aggro of... being 4bet when you're in position! had to laugh at that
I've got my own idea of what I thought you actually meant by that but really can't be asked to put it into words right now after reading this 30 page thread

I'm 100% certain you had Charders beat, several of the reasons I would only be just repeating exactly what others have said several times over already BUT one reason which I don't think any other poster has mentioned (other than Charders himself) is the tanking on the turn which is surely giving you a live tell and of course you must of surely picked up on body language tells during his tanking on the turn as Charders points out himself

IMO I think this piece of information is a key factor (not the only factor obv) in your decision to shove the river that bit wider than you may have done otherwise without potential live tells from the tanking on the turn

Maybe the importance of the tanking on the turn is drivel if charders was fairly stoic during the tanking, that's my take on it atleast and that's all from me as my brain is in pain after absorbing all of that in depth strategy and GTO talk

Thanks to Charders for posting this interesting hand and of course to Justin and to all others who contributed to this thread

100 out 10

Fav thread on 2+2

This is pure genius

Cliffs

Sometimes some people have a 'good' hand and someone else has better.

Sometimes some people have a 'good' hand and someone else has worse and bluffs.

It seems more likely to be the former than the latter.

Thanks You're welcome.

I just read this whole thread just to be left sitting here with my junk in my hand

Guess it will always remain a mystery

think u have to fold, dont see him do this with any worse hand and dont expect him to ever bluff first hand

lol accidental bump

I would 4bet pflop. But as played really close river. I just wonder how many is capable of this play as a bluff first hand in a 25k tourney 200bbs?
I expect him to end up with alot of random flushes on the river. So i say fold.
If he is some kinda of supermaniac call i guess.

This thread gives me AIDS w/o results

after reading ZJs posts, charder knows now he was bluffing

Bonomo had QJ spades.

Getting results for this hand would be like peeking inside Marcellus Wallace's suitcase.




(It would consume you).

spoiler

ZJ had QsJs