4 handed FT. Payouts are 1st- $2200, 2nd $1800, 3rd $1300, 4th $900.

Me and two others have ~10bb. Chip leader has like 75bb and is jamming virtually every hand.


We are in the bb and it folds to the chip leader in sb who jams of course. What is our calling range here, assuming he is jamming any2 in this spot?


I have ran this spot in ICMizer and will share later, I am just curious to see what people are calling with here.

Id call 22+, Axs, Axo, K7s+, K8o, Q8s+, Q9o, J9s+, JTo, T9s.

I think the hands near top of my fold range are profitable chip ev calls(K6s, K7o, j9o, T9o) and they likely increase my share of the prize pool as well. However, being eliminated in the big blind destroys the opportunity to play the free positions. In theory, the sum of chip ev in the free positions is where we recoup the cost of the blinds; this opportunity cost with a somewhat healthy 10bb stack counteracts the profitability of calling wider than stated above.

Thus while i know k7o, j9o, and the like perform fine vs his huge range, i think the next 3 hands provide better opportunity to increase my share of the prize pool.

Add a big stack to my left, and the next 3 hands become somewhat less significant, as ill have to tighten up; more immediate ev must be seized in this hand; calling range expands in bb.

"In theory, the sum of chip ev in the free positions is where we recoup the cost of the blinds; this opportunity cost with a somewhat healthy 10bb stack counteracts the profitability of calling wider than stated above." - me

I think the bold makes it ambiguous. Its correct and concise without.

So how much are the free positions worth? Our button is likely to be fold or call big stack cutoff shove with 2 players behind. Our cutoff is shoving into big stacks big blind. Maybe we get a good hand in small blind. Its not huge opportunity cost because we're to big stacks immediate left. but ill take my chances as stated. 3 chances to get into some really good spots, or k7o? Ill wait.

Ill post results later on after more people have a chance to chime in.

But pay attention to the payout structure, and how flat it is.

Bob -

Ive never seen such flat payout. I play small fields(max 50x gtd usually) that pay 15% of field with much steeper payout. Most players itm usually 7.

Given the flat pay structure and the opportunity to let someone else call off wide and bust I wouldn't be surprised if it's 66+ ATs+ AJo+ and maybe KQs. Given the flat pay structure I wouldn't be surprised if it was tighter; given how short you are and the lack of shorter stacks, I wouldn't be surprised if it was looser. I might be too tight since after plugging in those numbers those weakest hands are like 63% vs. a random hand, and I would guess your breakeven equity line is more in the high-50s.

Of course this is just one you can run in the ICMizer to find out what your breakeven calling threshold equity-wise is. This is a good spot to study for ICM ranges. My answers are just off the top of my head so it's really just what I remember from experience and study and a little guesswork; I didn't calculate anything.

That structure is very similar to 18mans where ICM is kinda insane I'd guess it's something like 55+ A7s+ A9o+ KJs+. In practice I would call even tighter than whatever the equilibrium is for two reasons.

1. It's always dangerous when you need to make the assumption that the other guy is on 100% range
2. Population is very bad at playing flat payouts and it's likely one of the other small stacks will torch their EV down the line

I dont think hes shipping any two but I dont think he ever folds, either. I dont think he has all aces but he might have all 72o. Deviations in either direction wont change the calling range much though.

Calling range is probably 77+, A9s+, ATo+, KQs or a bit wider

ICMizer says 88+ given this payout structure and with FGS3, so its looking a few orbits into the future.


The payout is just so flat that we cant be calling off much at all, but I was pretty surprised to see its sooo tight.

This the weekly $109 Main Event on BetOnline (I left a 0 off the payouts), $150k guarantee, this week was $180k.

This is a very interesting situation. If we double up it puts both of the other 2 players in the position of having to call off and double up as well.

But if we do double up it doesn't change much against the CL.

My calling range would probably be 88+/AQ+/AJs+ but if I thought CL was shoving any 2 I would be tempted to give 66/77 a try as well.

Thing is getting to 2nd place is worth more than winning really.

The flat payouts make calling range tighter than compared to something like (19.25%, 11%, 8.5%, 6.25%) but the payout structure is not the main factor. ICM is a bitch in this spot under both payout types.

Are there antes? Who is sitting on the fold out advantage(ie if everyone folds every time are we in second, third, or fourth)?

I can recommend holdemresources.net
They have a Nash pus or fold icm calculator which can calculate the exact best push range and calling range.

I have put your hand in the calculator and this told me that the chipleader van profitable shove any two in that spot because you have to fold so many hands that he can auto-profit by jamming any two.

You can just call 6.6%, 77+ ATs+ AQo+ profitable because you have to stay alive to make payjumps when somebody else bust.
There is big reward voor doubling up because there are still 4 players left after it but if we bust we miss a lot of money.

This calculation is based on a tournament with a ante.
If there is no ante involved you have to call only 88+, you can even fold AKs profitably.
I'm shocked as well

So if the other 2 with 10bb are as ICM savvy as you, you 3 are going to all fold into the money in some order?

Or the one that would have to be all-in blind first will realise it and eventually call a shove sooner?

Yep. The chipleader will mostly expend his chiplead because nobody wants to bust out first.
And no, we dont have to fold into the money. But we want to be the player who jams all-in. Not the one to call a all-in.
The difference is fold equity. If we jam we mostly pick up the blinds and ante's without Showdown and are able to sit out a new orbit.
Because we are basicly second in chips we can fold more often and if we are shorter we can jam more often.

My goal on this stage is to survive with the same stack until another player bust. That's the moment I make money

We're basically 2nd in chips if we have 10 bb after having posted the bb.
We're basically 4th (last) in chips if we have 10 bb before having posted the bb.

But totally agree that we need to shove, not call the CL all-in.
Although we might have less fold equity than we think because the CL might take a chance at some point with his 75 bb (and growing) stack.

Seems like a rare situation where you would want the chips on your left as opposed to right. I was thinking about this being much wider calling range but then thought about the exact situations if you win vs fold and it's clearly fold all junk and call with the goods. I would be at about 20% of hands if he truly seems ATC but a little tighter otherwise. I have been in the spot with the 75bb stack and I would be at like 95% of hands shoved in this dream scenario. Possibly 100% from SB. With the stacks and payouts, it makes sense to hodl and ship UTG with anything if nothing changes before.

What's the ante? I tried to run it through an ICM calculator it with both a 1BB total ante size (for big blind ante) and a 0.1BB ante (more typical for online), and I got 77+ ATs+ AQo+.

I generally set blinds/antes to 50/100-10 ante. It is definitely possible that I forgot the ante in the calc though. I cant double check for about a week because my PC died on me yesterday.


If you run it without antes and get 88+ then we know I messed up and overlooked the ante.

Finally got around to this and that is in fact what happened.

(On a side note, I suppose I'm pleased that my initial guess on a range was that close, even if I underestimated how much equity you need to call. Win some, lose some.

I will say, since it's valuable information for anybody to remember, I do forget sometimes how the suitedness of your big ace impacts your range when it's an any-two shove vs. a shove more heavy in Ax and high cards.)

I think the simplest way to think about these spots from a more macro perspective is that when there's a big stack and multiple short stacks, the big stack can effectively jam any two and the short stacks have to be incredibly tight.

If the big stack was first to act in this situation, they still get to jam any two and the widest range any player can call with is the BB and only about 6-7% of hands. The button can only call with 3% of hands. (99+) If you give one player even 25BB and the big stack 60BB in this situation, the CO can still jam 80% (and actually prefers jamming over min-raising) and the other widest range a BB with 10BB can call with is about 13% of hands. The 25BB stack in particular almost never calls because they're highly disincentivized to play hands with two short stacks at the table.

The practical takeaway is that players will screw this situation up constantly, and often by calling too wide. You'll see players constantly calling with stuff like A9o or 44 and that's lighting money on fire from an ICM perspective. Being tight in these spots, even overly tight, is going to generate significantly more EV than taking a thin edge spot to try to double.

The other thing to note is that the big stack, in certain spots, should actually NOT jam any two if he thinks that the players left to act are likely to call light.

In the scenario where the big stack is first to act and the other 10BB stacks have yet to act...if the BTN is going to call off 6% of the time, the SB is going to call of 10% of the time and the BB is going to call off 15% of the time - the big stack's opening range should be closer to 60% of hands.