Pretty sad though if the best we can reasonably hope for is 5-10% at the lowest levels. You'd have to play a huge volume to make it worthwhile. The low variance probably makes these a great roll builder but not much more than that (at least for low volume players like myself).

wow seriously? what kind of roi were you expecting?
and how long was it going to last for?
I'm not entirely sure I've got your last sentence figured out but if you mean they might be a bit of a dead end in the long term then yes maybe. I like the fun of a new format tbh (although I didn't like or play DONs at all)

I fold (but my $5 opponents generally let me shove a lot, I have two blind shorties on my button next who generally call really tight and it's only 60/120)

This is a trivially easy fold independent of whether villain is loose,tight or even crazy. Against a reasonable range you literally need JJ+ to call in this spot. Even if he were pushing ATC, this is a slight fold.

You'd be very unlikely to get a serious response even if you could do that. Post individual hands that you're truly unsure of. Run your hands in Wiz first.

I guess what I mean is they may be good options for people starting out to build up a roll but there doesn't seem to be much potential for climbing the ranks and actually making some money off these, especially if you're not a high volume player. If a realistic ROI is 5-10% at the lowest limits, what can you expect at $20 or higher? 2%?

I also like new formats and a big part of what I'm enjoying about the Fifty50's is the challenge associated with trying to figure out a game that hasn't been figured out yet. But my guess is that I'll probably return to my 45 turbos in the near future once I realize I can't actually make any money at these Fifty50's.

Jm I've read many of your posts here. Let me give you my impression of where you are coming from. First of all I think you are quite intelligent and motivated and like to think about things rather than take them at face value.
Unfortunately, this gives you somewhat of a tendency to try to "reinvent" the wheel. Fifty/50s are a new format true but they are still a STT where for which concepts like ICM theory apply(with all of its what I would call non-perfections).

What I am trying to tell you is the following

5%+ ROI's are definitely possible at all stakes(especially for a LOW volume player). fifty/50s have the dual advantages of lower variance and lower rake that most any other SNG

You need to have a thorough grasp of proper play to win at any level.

If you don't have SNGWizard buy it. Learn to use it fluently. Learn about Nash equilibrium. Finally, learn when ICM and Nash are particularly flawed and how to adjust.

Finally, keep thinking about the game as you already do, keep posting asking questions and above all DON'T GIVE UP. Hope to see eventually at the high stakes tables.

5% roi is only possible if you send $100 to me on stars each week for run good.

Grumpy, what I said to above applies to some extent to you as well. As far as
your question, I agree with Monkey Banana that that doesn't sound possible. I think a good inexpensive resource for you would be sitngogrinders.com(check out tolrock6 videos on Dons and fifty50s) Also if you have like one particular tourney you are especially intersted in my opinion on, PM me and I'll be glad to look at it for you.

and ya play less than 600 tables at the same time

POTY! I particularly like the part where you refer to me as "quite intelligent." And you're exactly right, I do like to examine, question, and understand rather than just accept what people are telling me. It might have something to do with why I ended up doing graduate degrees in philosophy. Seriously though, it's nice to read responses like yours rather than the typical "you're an idiot" or whatever type of responses that are so common.

I don't have Wiz - I used to use the free SNGEGT but it's an older program and hasn't been updated to incorporate new structures. I have a link to the nash calculator but to be honest I'm not entirely sure what to do with it (and how useful it is without a Wiz type program to go with it).

Anyway, I have a little challenge thread going about the Fifty50's so I'm not giving up yet. But the point I was making about the low ROIs is that low volume players can't put in the volume to compensate for the low ROIs that come with these. An ROI of 5% may be acceptable if you're doing 150 tournies/day, but you're not making much money if you're only playing 8-10/day.

I definitely respect and agree with most of your posts, but I don't agree with this statement. Don't know of any players with 5%+ over thousands and thousands of games at the $100s possibly not the $50s either. Also, I think the rake is borderline high and I would never use the word low in describing the rake on 50Fifty's.

Don't take this wrong but you couldn't get your philosophy degrees without studying Plato and you can't play sitngoes intellegently or effectively without studying ICM and Nash. Consider buying the Wiz like buying a requirement for the course. Now as for playing a low volume of low stakes sitngoes of course that is not a way to make meaningful money. It is however a good and necessary step along the way to playing higher stakes and/or volume

Hard to beat the rake on the turbos: 8% at $1, 5% at $5...

OK, I don't know anyone with that big of a sample yet either with a 5% ROI.
As for "low" rake for fifty50s I only meant vis a vis other types of SNGS(only hyper satellites are lower). Could and should the rake be reduced further, of course I'd love to see that. As to the point that JMBreslin made about the high rake on the $1 ones that is true but unique only to that ultralow stake.

Not so far (at the $5s anyway)

I meant it's hard to find a game with a lower rake, not that it's hard to beat the rake in terms of ROI.

i must be playing different games than everyone else as the 21.20s-53.00s regs are rarely filled with regs that are great and almost always contain a few fish.



My buddies graph in these 65 ABI

Actually I think the rake is very good in the turbos (see my post above). Regular $1 9-man STTs on Stars are 20%, $1 turbo 45's are 10%...

I guess the issue is that the rake is high relative to the expected ROI. By comparison, paying 10% to play the $1.10 45-turbos isn't a big deal when one can expect an ROI of 25-35%.

Easy reshove to pick up a big pot given his likely wide range?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.08 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds 25 Ante (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 (t1515)
CO (t1795)
Button (t4625)
SB (t1630)
Hero (BB) (t2400)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t1495)
MP1 (t740)

Hero's M: 4.80

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9, A
6 folds, SB bets t600, Hero ???

ya doubt stacks are big enough to induce so his raise size is intended to scare you and most hands in that range you dominate.

yes the reg speed games are very soft compared to the turbos.

How much longer to the regulars take? Probably not worth it at $1, where the rake is 3% higher for the regs, but the difference drops to 1.2% at $5.

Sorry to be a bit late on this but I just downloaded the free version of Wiz. Why do you guys advocate using a 60, 10, 10, 10, 10 structure when that doesn't really reflect the prize distribution? First place never ends up with 60% of the prize pool, and the distribution tends to be much closer throughout the 5 spots (perhaps closer to 30, 25, 20, 15, 10, or something along those lines).

Go back through this thread and you will find much discussion about this point. I particularily advocate creating your own 60,10,10,10,10 structure in the Wiz instead of using his default fifty/50 because in the former case your import to Nash yields meaningful results and in the latter it is gibberish.