Hi!

The blind structure of a Tournament is SB/ BB+Ante!

What chip stack strategy is the right one in the following example?

SB 500/ BB 1000 + 1000

I have a 30.000 stack.
Do I play a 15BB or a 30BB Strategy?

Thanks

30.

In almost all live tournaments there are BB antes (at least after the first few levels) so my strategy is always consistent based on my stack size (or the effective stack based on other player's stacks). In your example here I would be doing things at 30 bb strategy.

At 30 bb's I do certain things that I don't do at 27 bb's and 25 bb's. I won't be 3-bet jamming pre-flop. I will be calling some SC's OTB or possibly CO if players to my left don't 3-bet pre-flop. My pre-flop raising range might be wider based on other players.

I play it more like a 15bb stack, when I am in the bb, especially if heads up.

30BB. Most 30BB strategies account for the antes. Even online with the more standard antes, you're still roughly paying the same amount per orbit.

Just know that it costs you 2.5BB an orbit and go from there.

This. Most 30BB MTT preflop charts, for example, assume antes and widen ranges accordingly.

If you're not playing with antes, the rule of thumb is to generally be a little bit tighter from all positions. More akin to ranges you'd use in a cash game.

Why would you play a different strategy based on who put the dead money in the pot? Should play exactly the same strategy playing 500/1000-1000 as you would at a 10 handed table playing 500/1000 with 100 individual antes, with the very slight exception of jamming a bit wider in EP and a tiny bit narrower in LP when very short, because your fold equity is going to be chiseled off more abruptly once you hit the blinds, but will remain equal otherwise.

I think this is very dangerous and isn't worth it.

For example in the EPT tournament I won, we were 3 way at the final table. BTN folded and I limped. BB jammed with 52o which might have been an almost decent strategy with 15 bb's especially considering I had limped in the SB and folded to raises about 5 times previously (when we were 9 to 6 handed). But here I called with 99 and BB was knocked out because we both had basically 30 bb's but I had a little more. The BTN had about 20 bb's at the time.

1. While the bb ante speeds up live play, it is a misnomer to call it an ante. An ante has a specific meaning that the bb ante does not meet.
2. My incentive to recapture 1/8th a blind from the various positions is less than recapturing 1bb from the best position preflop and increases with less players in the hand.
3. I don’t accept strategically that I should not consider a double bb as a halving of my M and effect my theory of play based on stack size.
4. I accept that the above may not be mathematically correct.
5. I have played some ante tournament where the dead money antes exceeded the bb and sb together.

Rick, I think your disbelief in ICM is more dangerous than my bb ante disbelief….lol.

If you’re accepting that you are operating on emotion and not math, OK, but I think we all know which has more place in tourney strategy.

See, I think the issue here is that you see the ante and BB ante as "your money." Once it's in the ante, I consider it gone. Doesn't matter if I win it from the BB or from some other position, it's the same amount of chips, and once they're in the ante I no longer have claim to them unless I win the pot.

However, point 5 is an interesting strategic discussion, because I've seen and played a few low-blind heavy-ante tournaments online. I think for those I actually sort of think back to the concept of M-- or, more accurately, when the ante is so much bigger than the blinds rather than the standard roughly 1BB in total, I adjust my ranges and bet sizes based on the pot size preflop. (With a BB ante, one orbit around the table-- and one pot before anyone VPIPs-- is 2.5 BB. So I adjust my play as though the pot size before VPIP is 2.5 BB, rather than playing strictly to the BB size.

I don't think it's acting on emotion at all. I do think math is the most important concept in poker but it is only one component of proper strategy.

An ante (pronounced "AN-tee") is a small forced bet made by all players in a poker game, prior to the initial deal. This is different than a blind, which does not apply to all players.

- Tournament bb antes do not meet this definition.

I do still think of it as "my money" because it is made up entirely of my money but I am also incentivized to recover the entire amount in one hand when actinf last preflop.

No, no, no. The definition is deficient. The key difference between the ante and the blind is that you get "credit" for the blind, but not the ante. In other words, your blind is counted towards any raise you have to call or any raise that you make, where the ante is not. It is in this sense that the blind is "yours" while the ante is not. Logically, this means that once the ante is posted, it is "community" money and you get no credit for it; unlike the credit you get for the blind. So when pricing a call or a raise, it is a non-factor.

I take issue with a bb ante being a small forced bet by ALL the players before the deal, not the difference between an ante and blind and how they are credited.

Yeah, that seems like a problem with your definition of "ante," not with the actual function of the big blind ante.

Explain the difference mathematically speaking: (Assume 8 handed table for both)

Scenario 1: blinds 500/1000 with a bb ante of 1000
Scenario 2: blinds 500/1000 with a standard 125 ante

Answer: there is no difference. In both cases the pot size before any PF action is 2500. In both cases we are forced to bet 2500 chips every 8 hands. In both cases, if we are BB facing a minraise we must pay 1000 more to call (and the call amount is identical for other raise sizes). How are they different?

The only possible difference I could see is if we are extremely short stacked and are forced all in by the BB and/or BB ante. HereÂ’s a rules question that I honestly donÂ’t know the answer to. Suppose with scenario 1 above, we are the BB and our stack is 1000. We can only go all in and post either the BB or the ante, not both. Which do we post?

It would make a difference. If we lose itÂ’s irrelevant obviously, but if we win we only win 1000 if we posted the BB ante. We win 1000x the number of players who donÂ’t fold PF if we post the BB.

I think you post the blind before the ante.

The rules are different at different casinos, I'm pretty sure. They'll usually publish something to clarify. Some places the big blind posts the ante first, other places the big blind posts the blind first.

In my local, you pay the ante first. This, if you have 2bbs and are utg, proper strategy is to shove, probably with atc, rather than pay ante and blind the next hand.

Disagree

Cost of folding hand:

Ante: bb ante

Utg. 1/8. 0
Utg+1. 1/8. 0
Mp. 1/8. 0
Mp. 1/8. Etc.
Co. 1/8
Button 1/8
Sb. 1/8
Bb. 1/8. 1


Having the best preflop position, especially if everyone but one player folds, and the payment of 100% of the ante came from me, I believe it incentives me to recapture the bb ante.

If, for example, utg paid the ante instead of the bb, acted first preflop and 1st-3rd post flop, I would be less inclined to try to recapture the ante.

Sorry but this is mathematically incorrect. The EV of folding PF is 0, regardless of position, pot size or any other factor. Money in the pot belongs to the pot, regardless of who put it there. In all cases, if you raise PF and nobody calls, you win 2.5BB. If you are the BB and there is one limper the pot either is 3 or 3.5BB (3 if the SB calls). Your incentive to try to take down the pot is the same - winning that 3 or 3.5BB - regardless of how that pot came to be. If UTG posted a 1BB ante, that doesn’t change. You win the same pot when a limper folds to your raise.

Maybe the problem is that you are focused on a single hand and not the long term. If you fold for an entire orbit, your stack declines by 2.5BB. This is true whether the ante is posted by every player on each hand or if the entire ante amount is posted by the BB. It may also be the proverbial “boiling the frog” scenario. The frog doesn’t notice he’s boiling if you gradually increase the temperature. Likewise you don’t think your stack is declining that rapidly when you post the 100 ante, but you sure notice when you have to post 2000 on the hand where you are BB.

In that case it would also certainly be true that UTG with 1BB you would call with ATC. If you waited and posted the ante first, you’d only be able to win back your ante - 1BB. If you call UTG you would win 2.5BB minimum, and possibly more if it’s not folded to BB.

I don't know why you changed cost to EV. Of course the EV of a preflop fold is zero (if there is no icm to consider).

This is true when you are playing with a full table. But later in the tournament when tables are often not full, having a BB ante, actually does boil the frog faster since the ante doesn't adjust for number of players at the table.