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Can you 5bet with TT?

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11-02-2021 , 04:45 PM

Redsixerfan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 396

https://rumble.com/vgqjk1-5-bet-alli...ournament.html

This player was constantly raising, and 3 betting and 4 betting. Decided to take a stand, out before I get better?

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11-02-2021 , 11:10 PM

leviathan74

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 3,423

Yeah, I mean if he shows with ATo in this spot and you ve seen him show a wide range in similar spots, sure get it in. But vs the vast majority of players this is burning money.

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11-02-2021 , 11:12 PM

keuwai

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 328

I think you should treat his 4bet as a 4bet shove, because given your stack size he's clearly not folding vs a 5bet jam. So I think your play is fine given that I would probably call off TT against a jam. But you have to be careful about 5bet "bluffing" hands like AT/AJ that you wouldn't call off against a jam, because this is a spot where you pretty much have no fold equity.

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11-03-2021 , 11:27 AM

Redsixerfan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 396

Can't fold every raise just because the same guy keeps reraising you....

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11-03-2021 , 08:07 PM

nath

the second coming of the second coming

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 68,688

I mean, generally I'm playing more cautiously against a 4x open and a cold 4-bet, but I guess if the guy is cold 4-betting hands like AT then yeah this is obviously fine.

I might have just flatted against a 4x UTG raise, though. Any particular reads on the raiser?

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11-05-2021 , 11:21 AM

Redsixerfan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 396

Quote:

Originally Posted by nath

Bullying. Because I too don't like to get it in with "just" TT. After him forcing me to fold several raises and re raises, I figured this was the time to take the stand, win or lose!

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11-23-2021 , 05:35 AM

JohnRusty

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 2,755

Open limp/reraise

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11-28-2021 , 11:13 PM

bisquick

newbie

Join Date: Nov 2021 Posts: 20

Just btw:

in replay description is:
" Normally a 5 bet allin with TT is not advised but against a maniac who is playing 40% of his hands and 3 betting 10% of the time."

- playing 40% of his hands and 3 betting 10% of the time = This describes solid range, no good for TT.

But this is standard, 25bb stacks, effectively 4bet shove with ATo, 40% equity against early open and 3bet from middle

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03-26-2023 , 08:34 AM

Redsixerfan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 396

Quote:

Originally Posted by nath

He was doing it way too often, didn't have time to wait for QQ+

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04-01-2023 , 07:33 PM

#10

downunder66

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 324

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redsixerfan

He was doing it way too often, didn't have time to wait for QQ+

He's asking about the utg OR, not the supposed maniac, any reads on him?

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04-02-2023 , 03:53 PM

#11

Redsixerfan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 396

Quote:

Originally Posted by downunder66

He's asking about the utg OR, not the supposed maniac, any reads on him?

playing 40% of his hands and 3 betting 10% of the time.

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04-04-2023 , 04:33 PM

#12

jjpregler

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,974

I don't know. 10% doesn't seem too wild to me. 8% 3bets is about average. And I don't know your sample size. If it's a small size, it could easily be variance.

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04-04-2023 , 06:27 PM

#13

Redsixerfan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 396

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjpregler

I don't know. 10% doesn't seem too wild to me. 8% 3bets is about average. And I don't know your sample size. If it's a small size, it could easily be variance.

So you fold all but what to his 3bets?

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04-04-2023 , 09:27 PM

#14

jjpregler

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,974

It depends on the positions, stack sizes and etc.

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04-05-2023 , 12:51 AM

#15

Redsixerfan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 396

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjpregler

It depends on the positions, stack sizes and etc.

In this situation I believe the call was correct.

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04-05-2023 , 11:26 AM

#16

jjpregler

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,974

Yeah, no I didn't say this hand was wrong. I was just mentioning that your classification of him getting out of line with a 10% 3bet, doesn't seem really out of line to me.

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04-07-2023 , 09:55 PM

#17

Redsixerfan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 396

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjpregler

Yeah, no I didn't say this hand was wrong. I was just mentioning that your classification of him getting out of line with a 10% 3bet, doesn't seem really out of line to me.

You would fold here then?

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04-08-2023 , 08:25 AM

#18

jjpregler

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,974

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redsixerfan

You would fold here then?

No. It's a call in theory. I'm just saying, that a 10% 3b is not a maniac stat. The average 3 bet stats should be in the 7% - 10% range. So he is still in the normal 3b stats range.

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04-10-2023 , 05:59 AM

#19

Redsixerfan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 396

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjpregler

No. It's a call in theory. I'm just saying, that a 10% 3b is not a maniac stat. The average 3 bet stats should be in the 7% - 10% range. So he is still in the normal 3b stats range.

ATo is normally within someone's 3bet range when they are 10% 3bet?

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04-10-2023 , 07:40 AM

#20

jjpregler

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,974

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redsixerfan

ATo is normally within someone's 3bet range when they are 10% 3bet?

Yes. At times, it is GTO to have ATo as a bluff 3b. Here is 1 graph off the top of my head that has ATo:

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04-10-2023 , 03:52 PM

#21

jpgiro

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 1,442

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjpregler

Yes. At times, it is GTO to have ATo as a bluff 3b. Here is 1 graph off the top of my head that has ATo

ATo is a somewhat common 3-bet in a lot of configurations, in part because when you 3-bet ATo you make AJo at best indifferent or even fold quite a lot, which is very powerful.

The way I learned about bluff combos is that you often want to pick the hands that can fold out slightly better hands in your opponent's range. That's why you'll see stuff like K8s or Q9s show up in 3-bet strategies, because you very often get better hands like QTs or KJo to fold.

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04-10-2023 , 10:33 PM

#22

Redsixerfan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 396

I wouldn't think AT is a good 3bet hand. I like 3betting better with suited connectors, at least live cards, AT can easily run into AK and AQ.

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04-10-2023 , 11:18 PM

#23

nath

the second coming of the second coming

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 68,688

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redsixerfan

I wouldn't think AT is a good 3bet hand. I like 3betting better with suited connectors, at least live cards, AT can easily run into AK and AQ.

It's a bluff 3-bet. You block the ace and sometimes you can get hands like AJo to fold, or at least hands with good equity against you to fold pre. Any hand you 3-bet can run into AK and AQ.

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04-11-2023 , 03:31 PM

#24

Redsixerfan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 396

Quote:

Originally Posted by nath

It's a bluff 3-bet. You block the ace and sometimes you can get hands like AJo to fold, or at least hands with good equity against you to fold pre. Any hand you 3-bet can run into AK and AQ.

ATo vs AK/AQ is 26% chance to win.
87s vs AK/AQ is 40% chance to win.

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04-11-2023 , 03:56 PM

#25

jjpregler

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,974

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redsixerfan

I wouldn't think AT is a good 3bet hand. I like 3betting better with suited connectors, at least live cards, AT can easily run into AK and AQ.

ATo blocks AA/AK/AQ. You will still get called by hands like KJs that you are ahead, the T does not block hands at the bottom of his range that will fold. He doesn't have many offsuit Ts in his open range.

Sure you can be afraid of monsters all the time, but ATo is quite common to 3 bet in many scenarios.

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