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Old 01-26-2008, 06:34 AM   #1
yobbomate
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calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

i've seen alot of posts that show ppl raising with say JJ to like 60/80 at level 1 or 90 at level2. maybe its a complete leak in my game but i find i call alot with hands in position that have huge potential eg 910s, 78s and more often than not they are really really profitable. i just like to play these hands early on. if i take a hit i can easily steal a few blinds at L3/4 and i'm in good shape. i guess my question is should raises with big hands be to like 120/150 at early levels, and is it correct to be really tight at early levels like most ppl say?
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Old 01-26-2008, 06:37 AM   #2
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

you are better off not calling with SCs most of the time, think about it. how often will you really flop a hand you are confident in with 78s and when you do, will you get paid off all the time? do you have poker tracker?
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Old 01-26-2008, 07:02 AM   #3
genya
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

I think that calling a pfr with T9s or 87s in the early levels depends a lot on table conditions of your particular SNG.
If a villain raises and there are 2 or 3 over-calls before the action gets to you, then you definitely want to call. However, if you are going to be heads-up (esp. against an aggressive player), out of position, and such it would probably be best to fold.
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Old 01-26-2008, 07:27 AM   #4
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

true. but i think that a) early on ppl just can't let go of 1010, JJ. like i said, it may not be the right play, but i find it very profitable (mind you i play micro sitngos lol), and b) position is enjoyable.
and is 80 really that big a price to pay? i like to play those hands early on before it gets into shove mode.

also, is pokertracker as useful for SNGs as it is for cashgames? esp for turbos?
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:42 AM   #5
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

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Originally Posted by yobbomate View Post
but i find it very profitable
you find it profitable by selective memory? or by results from Poker tracker? you would be surprised how calling 60-100 two to three times a sng can add up and ruin your FE in the later rounds
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:56 AM   #6
IFoldPktOnes
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

Calling any raises with sooted connectors sounds like a big leak. Limping them behind other limpers is ok in the first 2 levels, high suited cards (KTs+,QTs+,JTs) are much more profitable than low suited-connectors (T9s,98s,78s...) for a number of reasons. I'm only really playing the low suited connectors from late position behind 2+ limpers.

Open raising monsters to anything higher than 100 at t20, and 120 at t30 will lose value, even at a $3.4 imo.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:02 AM   #7
genya
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

I agree that people can't let go of hands/pairs at the micros (i myself play the 6+.6 turbos), but the issue that I have with calling with SCs in unfavorable situations is that you may find yourself playing with the second best hands too often.

For example: holding T9 and a flop of T52 vs AT/JJ+ may be costly in chips.

Also when calling a raise heads up it will be more difficult to draw because you will be bet into more often/harder, and less of a chance of being paid off well if you hit (as opposed to a multiway pot).


Had this hand come up about 20 minutes ago, 1st hand of 6+.6sng
10/20 blinds (cake=no converter)

hero in sb has T9

MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, BB(villain) raises to 100, Co and hero calls.

Pot =320, flop 768

hero checks, bb bets 20, CO calls, hero raises 200, CO and BB call.

Pot 920, turn 5

hero bets 460, BB calls.

river J

hero pushes in rest (740ish), BB calls.


BB had A4o.


Definitely nice when they flop well but it doesnt happen often enough to justify calling with SCs in all situations IMO.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:53 PM   #8
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

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eg 910s, 78s and more often than not they are really really profitable.
What are you basing this on? Do you have PT stats or is that your gut feel. I can't imagine playing these hands in SNG's is going to be a good thing long term.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:14 PM   #9
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

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I agree that people can't let go of hands/pairs at the micros (i myself play the 6+.6 turbos), but the issue that I have with calling with SCs in unfavorable situations is that you may find yourself playing with the second best hands too often.

For example: holding T9 and a flop of T52 vs AT/JJ+ may be costly in chips.

Not for anyone with a fold button, it won't.

This is the thing. SNGs reward nitty play. You don't want to make top pair with T9 because you know that anyone betting into you can easily have you beat and drawing to three outs at best. You can wind up paying for three streets with a hand that doesn't figure to win all that often.

A tougher flop is J83r. You hate to have called a raise before that flop, because the raiser will likely be cbetting and you can have 14 outs, so you hate to fold. But hating to fold will cost you dollars in the long run.
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Old 01-27-2008, 12:56 AM   #10
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

Calling any raise with a suited connector is roi suicide in a game that rewards survival. I don't think you have any idea how expensive it is to chase a draw in a STT... and forget about calling a 1/2 pot bet because you have "implied" odds on a straight or flush draw--these odds are typically negated by the diminishing value of chips gained and the increased cost of chips lost, not to mention your lost fold equity as you near the later levels.
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Old 01-27-2008, 01:31 AM   #11
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

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Calling any raise with a suited connector is roi suicide in a game that rewards survival. I don't think you have any idea how expensive it is to chase a draw in a STT... and forget about calling a 1/2 pot bet because you have "implied" odds on a straight or flush draw--these odds are typically negated by the diminishing value of chips gained and the increased cost of chips lost, not to mention your lost fold equity as you near the later levels.

I agree.

The big difference between calling with suited connectors and calling with what most people consider the other speculative hands -- small/medium pairs -- is that the pairs way more often flop hands you're immediately willing to back with your stack. And when you miss the flop, its generally much easier to get away from them.

Even in cash games, I much prefer to be raising with suited connectors rather than calling. Having the betting initiative gives you many more ways to win the pot since you don't actually need to hit the flop. And you can continue with draws both aggressively or passively depending on the situation since you don't have that pesky $EV stuff and escalating blinds to worry about.

I believe you probably need somewhere close to double the implied odds to call raises with suited connectors in a sng than you need to call with pairs.
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Old 01-27-2008, 02:17 AM   #12
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

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Calling any raise with a suited connector is roi suicide in a game that rewards survival. I don't think you have any idea how expensive it is to chase a draw in a STT... and forget about calling a 1/2 pot bet because you have "implied" odds on a straight or flush draw--these odds are typically negated by the diminishing value of chips gained and the increased cost of chips lost, not to mention your lost fold equity as you near the later levels.


well said....its a leak most always.
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Old 01-27-2008, 02:20 AM   #13
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

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well said....its a leak most always.
SCs are teh suck in STTs. The ICM tax is just too high.
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Old 01-27-2008, 02:25 AM   #14
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

Calling with a PF raise w/ SC in early stages is trouble. How often does the flop hit your hand? and Unless it is a monster flop you have no way of knowing where you stand if you get bet into or bet out and just get smooth called. Anything that depleats your stack kills your FE when the game gets important.
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Old 01-27-2008, 06:47 AM   #15
genya
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

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Calling any raise with a suited connector is roi suicide in a game that rewards survival. I don't think you have any idea how expensive it is to chase a draw in a STT...
I think that this is highly dependent on your opponent and level of SNGs that you play. I think your statement applies to 16s and up, but at the lower levels where OP was referring to it is not as clear cut. You have monkeys that raise pfr and min-bet all streets and others that will give you their stack because they cant let go of the fact that they raised pre-flop (as in the hand above).

Last edited by genya; 01-27-2008 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:09 AM   #16
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

It isn't good at low levels.

Lower levels are more loose, which means you should play tight.

It's still a leak at any buy in.

Posting a donkey hand doesn't change that.
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:26 AM   #17
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

Fold the suited connectors in raised pots. You're either a) applying selective memory, forgetting the ten "see-the-flop-and-folds for 100" and remembering the one time you busted someone or b) relying on an inadequate sample size.

Back to your other question on what people should be raising to in early levels: I usually keep it at 4BB + 1BB/limper in the early levels (1-3, say), regardless of hand (AA or TT). I then dial it back to 3BB + 1BB/limper level 4 and later (again, regardless of hand). I just find that 4BB at the later levels leaves me with a lot of crying folds on resteals, whereas 3BB feels much easier to get away from (while having almost the same fold equity).

Don't go crazy with raising YOUR JJ/TT just because you remember the one time you busted someone who had JJ/TT and only raised 3-4x. You'll start shutting out the suited connectors & pairs you want to call incorrectly while running into AA-QQ more often when there is a call.
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Old 01-27-2008, 08:03 PM   #18
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

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I think that this is highly dependent on your opponent and level of SNGs that you play. I think your statement applies to 16s and up, but at the lower levels where OP was referring to it is not as clear cut.
Dude, chasing a draw is just as expensive at the 6.50s as it is at the 16s. Yeah, it's great to stack someone when you hit your flush. That's why the fish love their sooooted cards. But you pay four, five stacks to do it with all the raises you've called pf and all the bets on flops and turns chasing your draws.

And each of those four, five stacks that you lost cost you more in $$$ than you gained by doubling up.
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:58 PM   #19
yobbomate
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

thanks for the replies guys. some useful points for me to think about.
i guess i wrote this because i find supposedly premium hands very vulnerable at low stakes and low limits. sure, i probably am doing it right and in the long run will come out on top. but i just can't seem to find a happy medium, i either get all preflop folds or alot of pf calls. i don't seem to get much value from them in single table turbos.
anyways, i'll tighten up and see how it goes.
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Old 01-30-2008, 11:12 PM   #20
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

your implied odds are not good enough in SNGS to call with connectors.

you only start with 75 BBs.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:17 PM   #21
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

Hi guys! I am new to the forums.

I agree with those who say that calling big raises with SCs in low stakes sng is a good way to deplete one's bankroll.

I play the SCs and small pairs (early in the game) just as Doyle teaches in Super System - I want the pot to be multiway and I want to get in as cheaply as possible. If I hit my hand I want to control the size of the pot as much as possible so that I can keep two donks calling to the river. If I have two on the line, I will often check the river if I am out of position, so that the donk with the one pair hand (or who rivered 2p) will put in his whole stack.

Later in the game, if I have a stack that gives me some fold equity and I can play a bit more of a "fancy" game, I will raise the SC from early position, always folding to a reraise. Of course, it goes without saying that a bet into nearly any flop is required so I only play this style if the cards have been going my way, or if I have a decent read on my opponents, or if my stack is better-than-average.

Trying to play fancy early on, in raised mulitway pots, or heads-up, with 35% hands pf, will kill you in low stakes SnGs.

All that being said - I have played all kinds of styles in these type tourneys and I have found that LAG style will never work, super tight will result in winning about 50% of the time (and with variances can lead to psychological melt down resulting in bad play) and TAG style with some late-game fancy play is the most profitable.You have to mx it up. Controlling the size of the pot is the biggest component of my profitable style.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:52 PM   #22
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

Wow you win 50% of the time?

Coach me plz?
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:25 PM   #23
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

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Wow you win 50% of the time?

Coach me plz?
He wins more than 50% of the time as "super tight wins 50% of the time" and he plays the superior tag style that is the most profitable!
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:29 PM   #24
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

Beerocrat - I don't think that I play well enough to coach any one because 99% of my experience is at low limits, and mostly sng. So I doubt that I possess the full range of tools to be profitable at higher levels or to tell others how to play.

As a matter of fact, I hope that others here will point out what they see as leaks in my poker philosophy and broaden my knowledge so that I will feel comfortable in stepping up to higher limits.

I'm curious to know what your winning percentage is and how often you play just for the sake of conversation. And I do hope that you are winning today!
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:02 PM   #25
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Re: calling raises at low levels at low stakes SNGs

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I'm curious to know what your winning percentage is and how often you play just for the sake of conversation. And I do hope that you are winning today!
Well I'm a bad example because I've only logged about 1k STTs total over two sites, and as you can imagine I was a lot worse at first than I am now. I also have late game leaks. I get in the money about 42% of the time and win only 12% of the time, much less than your amazing 50%. If you are looking for conversation regarding finish distribution, there is an active thread already:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=132463
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