Spot that I'd like opinions on. In the money in a $100K guarantee. Sitting at 53rd place with $19,000 up top. Hero has $170K stack, which is slightly below average with blinds at 3500/7000.

Action folds around to the button with 6BB who shoves for $42K. Villain in the SB has $350K stack and has been periodically very active (bullied table before the bubble) but is not a maniac. Villain calls the $42K shove.

Action to Hero in BB with AKo. Folding is not an option. Three-betting to $100K and leaving $70K behind is useless. Options are call, see a flop, and evaluate in position, or shove.

What are the considerations you would consider and what action would you choose most frequently in this spot?

Shove 100% of the time

yeah me too what he said

Agree, you are looking to double up in this spot with a below average stack or if sb folds, you are playing a coin flip for 3-1 pot odds.

Maybe, to give yourself around 100k to shove on flop, you min raise to 77k but I doubt that changes much unless sb called with a really small pair and you get a scary board for him. But I would shove flop regardless and you probably have more fold equity preflop, if you have any.

This idea is probably just fancy play syndrome.

Even if I question sb lack of aggression and think he is laying a trap for you with a monster, I can't imagine passing on or limping an ak at this spot.

My instinct is to shove here because we have 24 blinds and AK.

The issue though is do we have any Fold equity? I actually don't think we do. If Villain called the 6 bb all in are they really going to fold to an additional 18 bb's to win over 36 bb's when all they need is 33% equity?

So going against the grain I just call.

The other thing is that in this case with no side pot, Villain will often check unless they smash the flop. If Villain has a PP and there are overcards they rarely bet. Draws rarely bet because they still have to beat BTN anyway and they risk that we hit our hand.

Yes? They have to beat two people and your range should be fairly tight, whereas a 6BB button shove should be much wider.

There might be a few traps in there but SB could have a fairly wide calling range here and we could be lost on the flop. Or maybe they could "trap" with AQ, but I think that's more a reshove hand.

And if they're calling correctly vs. the SB and not folding to your shove, then they're calling your shove with a lot of hands you beat and even dominate.

I really can't think of a reason not to shove other than "the hand was posted here, so the obvious decision must not have worked out."

I disagree that OP has no fold equity preflop. I believe OP still has a fair bit of it.

Villain has flatted for 6bb from his 50bb stack. A reshove demands an additional 18bb from his stack, which is now at 44bb.

I can think of all kinds of hands that I might limp behind out of the SB if I had a big stack like Villain does. My range would be pretty darn wide and would include a few monsters to trap with, but it would also be full of suited connectors, disconnected Broadway cards and low pairs like 22, 33, 44 that I might fold to a raise of 40% of my stack.

Even if you did have no fold equity ( which is not true ) that would still be reason to shove and get called by Ax KQ KJ etc that can get away post flop....

Anything but all in here would be pretty bad

This. Plus live villains will sometimes fold the small to medium pairs that we're flipping against, which isn't terrible either.

Jam.

Then get called by his 77 and bust.

You are giving up your positional advantage by shoving pre flop. Perhaps unnecessarily. Still like shoving...

Technically, yeah, but we'll only have a pot-sized bet left in our stack if we flat, so position doesn't matter as much. And with AKo we miss the flop 70% of the time, but by shoving pre we can get SB to fold hands with good equity against us (and maybe in some worlds call with something we dominate).

SB might be trapping but their range should be pretty wide for calling a 6BB button shove. Any pair, almost any ace, a lot of good kings, maybe even as wide as QJo/QTs.

Thanks for the posts, guys. I took some time to consider whether I had any fold equity vs. the villain's flatting range for 6BB there and I thought I did so that a shove made sense to isolate against the small-stack's very wide 6BB shoving range on the button. If SB folds, then I'm in great shape with dead money in the pot and even if I lose I still have a playable stack.

But, if I flat and whiff the flop and villain jams and I fold I also still have a playable stack. And in position, I might be able to jam him off a small pair post-flop if he doesn't make a set.

So, lots of overthinking and then I jammed.

For future reference, this villain snap-called my jam with QTo. I would not have expected him to call with such a marginal holding, and I was happy to get it in. (Button had K9o). Ten on the flop, so likely that Villain would have either led out on the flop or called my jam (with a gutshot and two overs). If Villain had folded, I would have won, so Jam was clearly the right move.

Thanks.

Yeah, you got it in good and you made the right play. Kind of a strange call against your jamming range, and he got lucky that you had one of the few hands where he had two live cards.

I guess Mr Rick was right, we had no FE. Of course that meant that Villain called off with a hand we are ahead of. It had to be one way or the other; we are way ahead, or have FE.

OP: You took time to consider your action, while you were doing that, Villain is allowed to think as well. His snap call came after you deliberated, so I wouldn't read as much into the timing as you did. Also, the Guarantee of a tournament tells me way less than the buy in. A $100K Guarantee can be anything from a $50 to a $1K...it didn't matter in this hand, but if you are trying to give us some color on the quality of the field, the buy in is a better way to do it.

Ouch, hard to believe this guy would fold on the flop to a shove if he won't lay down preflop.

I assume the flop was j10x if you had a gutter. Mr Rick do you call off on the flop or shove if villain checks?

I check back. I don't bet if there is no side pot unless I have hit the flop. Knocking out the Villain can win us the pot if we are ahead of the all in guy but trying to do it with a bluff is risky because if he calls with a pair we are screwed. Also, on the flop it may be worth it for Villain to call if he has a straight draw because of the pot odds and we are allowing him to pair up in some cases which means we aren't even the favorite (like if he has 98s or Q9s where yes a Q gives us the win but if a Q hits we are all getting it in anyway). Also we don't know if there is a flush draw which makes it even worse because with a flush draw and any type of straight draw Villain isn't folding but won't bet unless he hits.

I have seen a few times where a guy knocked out another player with no side pot and lost to the original raiser.

My best memory though was at Foxwoods in a $300 tournament where we were 4-way in a pot like this and I flopped a nut straight. A really bad player in early position shoved with a straight draw and was knocked out by me. He wouldn't have beaten the all in player anyway so it was all for nought.

Typically in these spots it will check through all streets unless Villain has top pair or better. Even then it sometimes checks through.

In fairness in a satellite to a $330 Commerce $1,000,000 guarantee tourney, I folded to a guy on the turn when he jammed all in when I had top pair and a flush draw because the turn card made a straight and I was fairly sure the guy had a monster (he had raised pre-flop in EP). Had I jammed the flop (which I absolutely should have done) I don't know if he would have called but I would have won. He had a pair and a worse flush draw and he won the pot. So sometimes the jam does work. But I think having a pair is critical even if it isn't top pair.

lol this

shipping ~20bigs on top of 6 should still get SOME folds...right? *shrug*

guess not...

Okay, I understand your reasoning. I don't think I would be checking it down with villain even though we have the small stack all in and no side pot. At other junctures of the tournament I generally follow this "etiquette" but not when 60 players left and in the money.

My thought is I either shove preflop or play it as a stop and go on flop even if I whiff.

I still don't think there's any reason not to shove. In general, "I made the right play and got it in ahead and still busted; how can I play it so I don't?" is, in my opinion, not the right way to think about tournament hands.

Easiest shove ever. Idk how/why this generated so much discussion.

If you aren’t ok with busting this spot then tournament poker isn’t for you.

I once had 2.1 BBs and AA in the SB and it folded to me, that was the easiest shove ever (JK, but feeling snarky today).

Personally, I hate being all in preflop for my tournament life no matter my holding. There are always boards that come that wreck a premium starting hand. I would much rather play a style that I have enough bbs to make a big bet/all in bet on the turn or river.

I still shove here, but second guessing when you lose is natural.

I do too, but sometimes the right play is the right play, and playing a different way is going to provide less EV and be riskier. (In this case, SB should have folded to the shove, so going to the flop with 1 SPR behind should have been riskier than shoving pre.)

Getting all-in pre is rarely fun, but shoving also maximizes your fold equity, and winning pots without showdown definitely reduces variance.