It's a lot of beating around the bush. Do you even have any names Chuck?

Yes but the exact reason why I haven't posted them is I need to be 100% sure and I can't be 100% sure before Stars co-operates (regarding Vancouver case). Regarding everything else I still also need to get Stars to co-operate AND I need to also go through the infos with Mickey, Claydol and/or other people (see previous posts) before outing a single person. I only made an exception with DonBartos because the information is on PS forums for everyone to see anyway.

For the last time I'm not dumb enough to post anything I'm not sure about. I can assure you that I'm as pissed off as the next guy about everything that's going on and also want to out these people but it's not my place to do so without 1) hardcore evidence (which can probably only be received with the help of Stars) and 2) seeking help and opinions from other people who are currently playing an EPT.

If me not snap ratting everyone is an issue for you, then that's too bad. Vote for a better rep next time.

does it hurt the community if donbartos takes over ..

Yo, to all of the people who are posting that people playing from the states aren't hurting anybody... As somebody who had to sell my house and uproot my wife and force her to leave everything she had (job, friends, etc.) and move to another country, I would disagree.

The fact is it's banned in the US and the people who have had to move abroad have had to sacrifice a ton in a lot of cases to do it "the right way". Not only are the hurting the bottom line of everybody who is playing legitimately but it's also like... when I go home to the states to visit my family, or play WSOP, or whatever, that's whole months at a time where I have to sacrifice my income to spend time with family or to go out to WSOP and the people who just decided they prefer to stay in the states and hangout don't need to miss out on any of this. It's like the people not VPN'ing are getting punished hard and the community is giving all of the guys doing it passes, and they get all of the extra rewards as well, it seems ******ed (costs me min. 50k/year, probably a lot more just visiting family/going back to the US)

Yes I know you all have friends who are doing it and nobody wants them outed, but I still think it's ******ed how taken advantage of everybody who gave up their lives/friends/family to move are in this spot and people don't seem to care at all. Just my thoughts, but I don't think it's an entirely victimless crime either like people seem to insinuate.

To me, since PS has done essentially nothing WRT stopping ANY of this, the first thing that should be looked at and tried to be taken care of would be these rings of backed/ghosted accounts by top tier players, like the Vancouver ring. Right along with this, I think people who are playing on screennames that are not their own need to be dealt with. It's BS that there's all these random accounts that players are using to gain an unfair advantage over their fellow regs who are playing on their own accounts, whether in the US or not.

Yes, players VPNing/whatever from the US are in the wrong and clearly breaking the PS ToS, but the focus as a community at this very moment should be (imo) to stop everyone who has surely gone well beyond that 'grey area;' the players who are setting up these rings of accounts just to ghost and take over deep in tournaments and these guys who aren't playing on their own screenames.

To me, as long as I have complete information on my opponent, I don't really care so much, even if what they are doing is against the ToS. But as PS has done essentially literally nothing as of this date, we really must try to do something against the worst offenders as they are the people who are taking large amounts of equity out of the MTT prizepools.

i feel like a lot of the migrated americans are hating on the vpning americans cuz of jealousy. they both made choices. one made the hard choice to pick up and move, the other has to risk losing everything by getting caught tho.

imo, theyre not doing anything to negatively affect me by vpning stars under their own name. i ccl whether the reg im playing against is in mexico or usa.

i respect that they made the difficult decision to not move and i dont think we should "tattle" as long as they are still under their own name. i dont really why anyone would hate on them

I mean for now, sure, but just keep a low balance in their account and as soon as you get caught (if ever) pay someone in Canada to open you up a new one and play on that, boom, NBD at all. The risk is a lot less than you or others are making it out to be, esp. since some of the previous people caught VPN'ing from right after black friday have already had their original accounts unbanned. If they are smart about it, the risk is pretty negligible.

and yea, I'm obv super jealous I can't play from the comfort of my own country in my own home and instead had to uproot everything and move. I'm also jealous that every time they bust a WSOP tourney they can go grind online and suck up all the free equity of like one of the juiciest months online, or they get to go spend christmas with their family and not miss out on the opportunity to hit SNE (I'm gonna get 80% SNE this year but had to miss out on 4.5 months cause I went back to the US or was in the US to start the year). They get to have all the upside with the online downside being losing your online name if you get caught and whatever $ you keep in your account (should be super trivial to what you make annually), and then you get to get a new account cause at that point who the !@_$( is going to just give up and quit poker that they got caught and say "awww shucks, time to get a real job" and it's even better cause now they have a name nobody knows on and get to exploit that as well, yayayayaya

Not to mention the games are tougher because of it. The millions of recreational fish from the states aren't using a vpn to get on stars, it's the crushers that are making the games artificially tough and unbalanced for everyone else.

I mean no one actually thinks a reg playing under his own name from the USA is cheating, right? It seems clear that it's not.

It's unfortunate that everyone else makes less money, and they did not have to relocate, but it's not cheating. At all.

I say that as someone who hasn't played a hand on PS/FTP since Black Friday and is super jealous of everyone (relocated or not) that is able to play.

You could maybe make the argument that if they are willing to break that rule they'd break others, but other than that none of the reasons itt are convincing to me that the act is cheating.

Sure it's against the rules, but to me it's absolutely no different than me dumping a friend $20 on Bovada at a HU table so he can play a tourney (there is no p2p transfer) w/o being bothered to deposit with his debit/credit card.

The ghosting, skype groups with live chat during hands w/ advice, MA'ing, and systematic cheating of backing groups is horrible, though.

It's something that started gaining momentum a year or two before BF, and it's really no surprise what the online poker landscape has turned into (both in MTTs and cash games).

we are assuming theyre not gonna do that tho. cuz otherwise theyd do it right now and gain the shady edge. otherwise i would agree with you, but im assuming if they get caught theyre geegd.
and nobody is stopping you from doing that. i say go for it as long as u dont do anything shady if u get caught and banned. the only reason im not is because imo its not worth the risk for me. i can travel whenever i want to play on stars and dont want to risk getting banned ever

thats not the grinders fault tho. the doj clearly made the games tougher, but a lot of regs are going to be playing on stars regardless, and just choose to vpn and take the risk. either way, the games will be the same

and yea, agree with both of tdomeski's posts

this if im playing against someone and they are vpn-ing it pisses me the *** off cuz i wish i was home.

if you ain't multiaccountin, you ain't tryin.

Firstly, well done to those who are taking leadership with regards to this problem. As a part-full time MTTer I have always accepted the fact that ghosting exists (have noticed the extreme change of playing styles when deep) in the broad scheme of things however it is pretty alarming to learn the magnitude of it all. It sounds as if every regular tournament is potentially a multi-entry tournament and we all know how bad they are for the poker economy. I fear that the true recreational player is getting busted way faster than what he is supposed to due to this ghosting.

Secondly, I for one have a huge problem with US players using a VPN. I don't care if you have a family to feed, I highly doubt playing poker is your only option. Having US professional poker players in the poker economy but not US recreational players really hurts our bottom line. While the "stealing a loaf of bread for their starving family" is a good analogy they are indirectly stealing from me.

Finally, it bothers me that people within this thread know (or suspect, since you arent sure) who is being ghosted and I don't. It should be made public knowledge that these players are being ghosted as a means of discouragement and because I ****ing want to know

This actually sounds like fun as a novelty tournament, I'd play it for sure

i hate that logic against americans vpning.

is a canadian supposed to feel the same about a US player that relocated?

All I can say is that as an Australian it is a realistic probability that online poker here will be banned in the near future. If this were to happen I would most likely just get a job or move overseas. That is my choice and it would irritate me if people stayed and played against the terms of service when none of the aussie fish can play

has this really not been mentioned once since?



agree with this 100%

the distinction needs to be made between the grinder that didn't move out of the country for whatever reason and the multiple horse+backing+ghosting operations that involve dozens of new accounts and teamplay. The former is just trying to get by (often with few alternatives), and yeah he's breaking laws (so let's all stop smoking pot before we cast some stones) but he's not f*cking the community, he's taking a risk with his money and ability to play if he gets caught. He's in essence defying the DoJ and by ratting him out we would be in essence supporting their agenda.


Hard to care for your 2nd bold part if you hold to your 1st

can we not come after the VPNer's pound of flesh for this offense? Most of 'em aint got many left.. I bounced to australia, cause I could, but if I couldn't I'd be VPN'ing and if I couldn't do that I'd be stealing non-proverbial loaves of bread.

For real though, I think we can agree that a country taking away from you the right to play poker online is an absurd premise. It's all "f*ck you, pay me" obv and in a year or two there will be no more need to VPN from the US cause their hands/pockets will be on the revenue faucet. But in the meanwhile the "indirect robbery" you are experiencing pockett is at the hand of the DoJ and Co. that eradicated the US recreational players from the player pools thus allowing only the best and most dedicated to continue on.

I know it was dark and it happened oh, so quick, but let's identify the right perp in the line-up.

lol +1

if you're of the opinion that it's correct for people to break the ToS to play online to feed their families, it follows that it's the correct line for us to get them banned to be able to to feed ours.

there are finite resources and only a small % of the field can win.

I've met you, so I know you are way too smart to see things in only black and white and not see the distinction between the different terms that make up the ToS. If you want to come after people for playing under their own names (albeit 'illegally') to feed their own families, well then that's your own prerogative, I'm just trying to appeal to your empathetic side and point out the differences between ppl intentionally f*cking the community & those just trying to get by.

btw, just for a point of reference, what is your opinion on the morality/validity of the laws that prevent ppl from playing poker online without their consent or vote?

I think its worth pointing out that people policing this have limited resources, it makes a lot more sense to go after the biggest cheaters, particularly those who are running staking rings, as opposed to a handful of individuals who are breaking the rules, but are much less culpable ethically.The individuals who are cheating the most, are the ones we should be trying to expose.

lol plz... shut ur beak. Seeing u aussie's and euro's talking about the sh.it we have to deal with is nauseating. just keep talking sh.it, you're country may ban it soon then we'll see how it feels.

so true