I heart this thread

Yeh, that was what I was trying to say. Whether I should or should not have posted in some thread, I was not misrepresenting anything. When you have a betgo bashing thread in the coaching forum, where some guy makes repeated attacks that I don't have a theoretically correct approach to ICM and calls me a fraud, charlatan, scammer, etc.; I do think I would have grounds to sue him and 2+2. It is really hard to sue for defamation and I would never do it.

It is not acceptable to make repeated accusations of fraud when not one person came forward to say I defrauded them or did not provide good value. I have other interests, such as doing poker videos, and I might want to sell shares at some point. I think sites should be a little more careful about this sort of thing. I isn't fair or appropriate to allow it, and you could get sued or damage relations with other advertisers.

LOL, somebody needs to find there #safespace

every time i see a discussion about whether or not to sue I can hear my grandfathers advice on that subject. 'one should never threaten to take legal action. if you need to do it, you just do it.'

by continuing to engage in debate and discussion on this thread, you've opened yourself up to ridicule from people who have no interest in the arguments presented, but are hugely entertained by the fight going on and wish to prolong their enjoyment by fanning the flames. you could write the most eloquent perfectly sound mathematically groundbreaking all-proving booker prize winning refutation to this thread. it wouldn't matter. within 5 minutes ebet would LOL you.

tying your marketing to 2+2 in the way you've done it would have been great if your reputation was amazing on here and people saw ongoing repeated endorsements from virtually everyone. at that point ppl would see you're a coach and look you up for further private insights and HH reviews. that's a great little business model tbh, but you need a very rare asset to pull it off - a perfect reputation on 2+2. that's something only a handful of people have. and without that asset a different business model is pretty much essential.

I understand at the time, SM had a huge reputation here, and people from here were telling the mods I was messing up threads here. However, I think that when SM posted stuff about my not understanding ICM in my coaching thread, it should have been deleted, as I requested. It was not relevant, and just an attempt to cause trouble and damage my business. This was what was done when another well known player later posted in my coaching thread. Creating a "Betgo Coaching" thread and allow one person with no experience of my coaching to make dozens of long posts in it was not acceptable.

I also don't think it is acceptable to allow someone to make repeated accusations of fraud, scammer, and professional coach, without anything to back up any of it. There were then others in the thread repeating that I was a professional coach. They have filters to remove words like ****, but they allow defamatory accusations like that.

It doesn't matter whether I was a good coach, player, poster, or whatever. There should be some standards for this sort of thing. Moderators can lock threads and delete posts or threads. It makes for good drama and site traffic, but it was hurtful to both parties involved. I am on discussion forums where many excellent posters have been permanently banned for personal attacks. I don't know if that is the best solution, but I do object to allowing straight out defamation over and over.

I understand at the time SM had a different reputation, and people weren't aware of what everyone has seen now on TV. However, there shouldn't be one rule for great strategy posters and other rules for everyone else. I feel what I was subjected to was pretty absurd, and I needed to state my position on it. I will try to say to more about it.

Fwiw- I only loled cause he said something like "I got 800 on my sat righting sample, shows I'm very smart" and nsb points it out. Which was very lol worthy imo-

Both posters have valid points tho (sm & bg)
Sm has every right to point out some of the random stuff bet go posts, especially in hsmtt- and its up to the customer to decide whether they want to invest in betgos low prices coaching- that's what happens when you put yourself out there and market yourself, especially on 2p2 (see the yourdoom coaching brewhaha in nvg)
So when you self gloss urself as an expert at x y or z you better make sure your game is tight other wise you leave yourself open for this. (Same thing happened to yourdoom)

yes, i lol'd too. don't worry. i chose your SN none too carefully and only because you were still active in the thread. no offense.

it's interesting to look at this purely from a business perspective. i mean, none of us are 100% perfect in every single aspect of our professional lives. surgeons make mistakes. businesses go bankrupt. we don't hold people morally to account when things go wrong in the execution.

but when you give advice as an expert and that advice is demonstrably wrong, it's seen as an unacceptable failure. i think that's interesting and a fair indication of the impact of scientific method. 600 years ago, betgo could have claimed that combining his coaching with tea leaves and beetles in a pot of molten lead would produce gold, and no-one would have challenged it. indeed many would have tried. nowadays, bad advice is seen as more morally culpable and damaging than even extreme instance/s of poor execution. a commercial lawyer with an expertise in trust taxation may endure and survive multiple lost cases, but if he/she gives technically incorrect legal advice on which a large trust replies then their reputation may be irreparably damaged.

so was this a business model doomed to failure from the outset? not necessarily, but it's a really tough road and one others should avoid especially in relation to the pure volume of posts and resultant exposure. at a minimum betgo could have kept advice limited to only those topics in which he was expert and qualified his response or stayed away from threads where the topic delved into issues in which he was non-expert. but even then, very few people will garner universal admiration for their body of posts on 2+2 and the more you post the higher the risk of negative publicity which in turn harms the brand and the model.

i gave some thought last night to who might have such a strong reputation on 2+2, that adding a coaching listing and getting super active in SSMTT MSMTT and HSMTT would be +EV. who never makes a mistake? who never gives bad advice? perhaps while hypothetically possible, in reality it's impossible to post tons and be a coach.

it's interesting though, just how much society (of which 2+2 is an interesting microcosm) will persecute bad advice. you can behave in the most appalling and antisocial way and survive with only the slightest dint in your reputation. but tell people you're an expert and get your advice wrong (and in Australia possibly add egocentricity) then 600 years of scientific method will shortly be knocking on your door.

betgo,


You are an idiot and a fraud. My reputation is the same on here now as it was back then.

Please sue me. Go ahead. I have freedom of speech, and I am a poker expert. It is my belief you are a charlatan posing as a poker professional and you have therefore scammed any students of yours in the past.

I feel bad if anyone is dumb enough to have been conned by you to pay for you to hurt their poker game to this day. Your recent posts in HSMTT prove you still have no idea whats going on, and are a complete charlatan and a scammer.

At worst, you are a naive idiot, and shouldn't be allowed to coach people in poker, just the same way you wouldn't let a person with downs syndrome teach high school chemistry. At best, you are a charlatan. You realize that you can't win at poker anymore and prey on the lowest of the low to barely eek bye. Hope you sleep well at night, scumbag!

Please go ahead and sue me. I would relish the opportunity to make it even more public the damage you have done and what a fraud you are.

It really boggles my mind you think that my WSOP episodes would somehow hurt my reputation or something? Why is that? Because i talked a lot? What does that have to do with poker skill / whether or not someone is worthy to be a poker coach. (You aren't worthy of being a poker coach and I doubt you could even beat the lowest stakes forms of poker anymore)

They told you to stop many times, and you didn't. You constantly parade around HSMTT posting cancer, and being a charlatan scumbag idiot. You just made an attack on me about my WSOP and just spread nonsense. You should stick to posting in lower stakes MTT and scamming there quietly and nobody would say anything, but you loved spamming terrible strategy and paying your croonies to post in support of you, so the "SEE MY COACHING LISTING" could pop up.

It really is pathetic. Must suck to be a losing poker player post black friday without many options. You should consider a job at mcdonalds.

I am not going to get into the issue about ICM, which was a matter of terminology. The problem I have is that this was a personal attack. Also, once you make your point, you don't need to make dozens of long posts attacking me. When the moderators wouldn't do anything about it, I posted something in about the forums asking that it be stopped. SM then made many long posts in that thread attacking me.

I can show many test scores that show I am not a "person of low intelligence". I scored over 130 on an IQ test. It is defamatory to post that, which is provably false, and was posted in an attempt to damage my reputation and business interests. SM posted in the "Betgo Coaching" thread and repeated here recently allegations that I engaged in fraudulent practices, was a charlatan, and scammer, and a professional coach. All of those are totally false, and he presented no evidence to support them. Again this is defamation and libel.

I object to personal attacks, writing pages and pages of material in an attempt to damage my reputation and business, and making various totally false and defamatory claims. I do not believe that 2+2 should have allowed this.

I was providing excellent value and misrepresenting nothing. However, that is not the issue. It is not just making the criticisms once or twice in the Coaching Forum, but the campaign of lies and defamation. Even if I were a bad coach or whatever, this is not acceptable.

Should I ****ing bring up how many times you've posted since?

You are a ****ing joke and a terrible human being. Leech, parasite to society. Skimming/scumming money off the lowest of the low.

Go be a garbage man or flip burgers. They are honest. Give up the scam and admit once and for all.

Or maybe we can make some giant bet that you can't beat low stakes on stars? No point, think you are too smart to bet against me on poker skill. Rather just keep things vague so you can scam people.

Haven't made any personal attacks or defamatory claims.

You just don't beat poker and are incapable of improving any of your students games. This is quite apparent by the bull**** strategy you post on here constantly.

I am doing 2p2 a service trying to make less people scammed by your predatory spamming tactics. Nothing was personal. You just suck at poker. Your comment about my WSOP episode was personal.

LOOOOOL good one Please sue me and show those to the court. Really relevent to your proficiency in poker what your SAT scores were lmao.

No you weren't. You are a parasite leech off of the poker economy and are a fraud and a charlatan. I think it would be best you let go and finally admit this, and maybe try to make amends to the people and refund some of the bogus 'coaching' you did.

There is no lies. Just facts. You don't win at poker anymore. Anyone that does know what it takes to win at poker can see that by your constant terrible strategy advice in HSMTT. Its fact, and I would love to explain it to anyone willing to listen.

Until then, why don't you STOP POSTING HERE IN HSMTT LIKE YOU PROMISED MANY TIMES BUT DONT DO IT BECAUSE YOU ARE A SPAMMY SCAMMING CHARALATAN SCUMBAG!

I proved you claimed to be an expert on ICM while many posts showed that in fact you were completely clueless on the very specific subject.

I would break this down in detail with anyone who wants to see, but I'm sure I've shown it in the past. Keep arguing/fighting. The truth hurts.

I don't need to answer this. I think people can see how I talk and how someone else talks. They also saw him on TV. I don't want to get into further issues with someone like this.

The above posts would not be allowed on many forums. Many forums do not allow personal attacks. This forum only looks for bad words, as in "****ing scammer".

I indicated my issues, which were not with SM primarily, but allowing this sort of thing to be posted in coaching.

SM it's a pity that what you say has logic because the way you say it makes you come across poorly. you've taken a stand here that's gained a lot of praise but the manner in which you've conducted yourself detracts from your argument. you are presenting a case to deny a guy his livelihood so the stakes are high. can think of ten ways you may have achieved this without resorting to a strat that ridiculed him and undermined your own argument.

personally i love the characters in poker but i'm ****ing sick of people passing off bad manners, bad judgement, egocentricity and aggression as 'character' and you have long been treading where lawyers love to tread. kudos for calling your opponent to the ring and you have balls, but **** you for the utterly polarized stance you've taken here and the lack of emotional intelligence, lack of sophistication and utter lack of comprehension as to the way in which normal decent humans resolve disputes and differences. you may be an expert in poker (your words) but you utterly fail at conflict resolution. there are easier ways.

however, betgo you are wrong when you claim that 2+2 needs to moderate or be held to account in any way shape or form for allowing a discussion that needed to take place on some forum to take place on theirs. the 2+2 philosophy has been very consistent and even though it's bugged me at times they ARE consistent. provided any retaliatory response is within reason they allow adults to conduct adult discussions. sometimes very heated important adult discussions about topics with monetary/livelihood consequences. SM has been far from perfect. you should have taken legal advice and made a legal response early. threats to sue are diluting your reputation further.

personal note: so why am i even buying into this? i have no connection with either SM or betgo. I know who they are, but have never met either. i'm just sick of poker players passing off bad behavior and bad ethics as OK because it undermines the public perception of the entire industry and need to be quashed. many players have bad images as part of their brand but it doesn't come remotely close to what is now presenting itself in a small but increasing portion of the player population. it's not OK to ridicule, remonstrate, attack, constantly click chips/cuss/sing/whistle or otherwise detract from other players' enjoyment of the game. i'm sick of the player that picks a fight, an actual fight at the table and then passes it off as 'trying to push the other guy off his game'. it's not OK to take 60 seconds over every decision. it's not OK to make people worry about being harmed. it's not OK to pass off in-expert advice as expert. 99% of poker players are fantastic human beings but we cannot excuse people who play, behave and post in a threatening way and some push towards better live and forum etiquette and behavior needs to gain momentum.

one person clearly winning itt

I am not threatening to sue. I said I have grounds to sue. I have nothing against 2+2. I would have to be crazy to sue for defamation, particularly the parties involved.

You see a little of the bullying behavior. You don't want me posting somewhere, so you will post in my coaching thread and try to destroy my business.

I guess it is OK here, but I do have a problem with posting that I was a scammer, fraud, and professional coach in the Coaching Forum. You provided no evidence to back up any of that.

You hurl all sort of insults, but provide no evidence to back up any of the insulting and defamatory claims.

As I explained before, I never coached very much, my coaching business was declining because I could not post my current MTTSNG stats after BF, and you destroyed it 3 years ago. This is totally irrational referring to me as a coach and so on.

I did provide evidence. You just don't like the evidence. You made false claims about your expertise in certain areas of poker, specifically ICM. Your strategy posts clearly show you lack even a basic understanding of some concepts and how to apply them strategically in the games, let alone be 'an expert'

I am just as much a master yoga instructor as you are an ICM expert.

Therefore, you are a snake oil salesman, a charlatan, a scumbag, and an overall terrible person. I hope you are smart enough to realize this deep down inside, and I think you secretly do so you have trouble sleeping at night knowing how many microstakes players you have defrauded because of your early year join date and large (mostly spammy terrible strategy advice) post count.

You said you'd stop posting in HSMTT many times, and never did. I wonder why.

wtf does this even mean? What about my appearance on TV discredits my opinions about you? Do you think my WSOP appearance means I am less accomplished or more qualified to comment on poker strategy than you?

You are a clown. Everyone knows this that has half a brain. Congrats on preying on the bottom of a barrel. You are a parasite. I will be remembered as a great strategy poster and a great poker mind. You are remembered as a charlatan, and a spammy scamming fraudulent scumbag. I hope you sleep well at night, you "ICM EXPERT"! HUGE MTT SNG ROI!

Betgo,

Your scamming site, which I will not advertise here. Something similar to grinder school or some nonsense, where they don't list you as a coach anymore, but only contact for private coaching. (wonder why)

Are you going to claim that after I came forward with the criticism of your ability that they didn't change your profile there? Because I am pretty sure with google archive/wayback I can PROVE that they removed the (FRAUDULENT, LIES, SCAMMING) where you claim to be an expert in ICM, etc.

Now, you just mention your chess background, and have stats of pre-uigea. Showing stats from over 10 years ago and selling coaching today is pretty much stealing as far as I'm concerned. Many would agree with me.

Stop posting in HSMTT and I won't say another word here, ICM expert Scam/spam away all you want as long as I don't have to read your cancer.

You admitted YOURSELF you were not qualified to post in HSMTT. Do you want me to dig these posts up? You said you'd stop. Its not bullying. You are just a charlatan and a scammer and now playing the victim card. Nobody with a brain will believe you. Maybe some unlucky soul who is trying to beat low stakes will burn some money so you can eat. Sleep well ICM expert / 800 on SAT!

I am who I am. I don't sugar coat things I don't owe manners or respect to an annoying scumbag scamming charlatan.

If anyone is personally attacking, its betgo for mentioning my WSOP Appearance which is clearly mentioning my apperance I guess? As I clearly played great

I never said anything personal about betgo. Merely, he is not the poker expert he claims to be, and is not qualified to coach poker. It is my professional opinion. The coaching poker business is FILLED with parasitic scum like betgo. He isn't the first or the last. Its good some people take a stand against them, as by definition, people trying to learn poker wouldn't be able to differentiate charlatans (like betgo) from a capable poker coach.

He claims he was misrepresenting nothing, but I can also prove that they changed his bio page once I called him out on the lies on the page. (they were blatant and hilarious)

Fun thought:

Its not ok to pass off-expert advice as expert.

What if its the case of Phil Hellmuth or other delusional idiots that actually think they are expert poker players. Maybe betgo is that stupid, and can use his stupidity as a naive excuse.

Then his actions as a charlatan scammer aren't malicious, he's just an idiot. Sure he can think he was providing good value as a coach. (even though he clearly wasn't) That wouldn't make him a bad person. Hellmuth I'm sure would think he could provide A+ advice on all MTT play just like betgo may think that his results pre-uigea make him qualified today.

At end of day, its good that there is a forum people can see qualified opinions and then choose what to make of it Jonathan Little , your doom, i mean hell there was a scammer trying to sell poker coaching on how to coach people to make 100k a year coaching poker! I **** you not! That guy is clearly a worse parasite than betgo, and maybe betgo is an idiot, and just naive.

Just food for thought Its only a scamming scumbag if he's aware he's scamming. The way in which betgo went about his scheme, spamming in HSMTT despite all the negative attention just so his post count/advertisement for coaching could be seen makes me think he has to know he's just grasping as the bottom of the barrel and leeching. Thats my read. I could be wrong. Maybe he's just an idiot and doesn't realize he's completely inept. Either way, it is certain he isn't the expert he claims to be in certain aspects of poker (specifically ICM as it relates to MTTs and SNGS) and therefore was fraudulently misrepresenting himself and should probably refund any profits he's made from coaching ever. Of course he won't, because thats probably how he gets by, but whatever, thats my opinion!

Betgo, you've mentioned my WSOP episode twice in this thread. Can you go into detail about why thats relevant please?