Im curious what the average yearly income for professional tournament grinders currently is? Someone that plays ~1500 hours of tournaments a year with a buyin that ranges live $500-$10k and online $50-$5k?

from minus $0 actually losing money to probably 200k. winning players have losing years potentially in mtts.

That's a range, not an average...

Amd we know the range needs to have a higher top end, as there are many events with payouts far higher -- where it would be hard to get back down to $200k through losses.

Live - if you're rolled to play $300K in buyins per year and are competent and winning against most fields, I could see you having a 25-30% ROI on average. So you'll have years where you probably make $0 or less and years where you make six figures, but I would think $75-90K net before taxes and expenses seems reasonable.

The problem, obviously, is that not many people are rolled to play $300K per year and/or sustain significant losses for multiple years without backing or selling action, so I imagine many players don't make that $90K per year over several years.

Not as sure online as I don't know what the best players shell out in a year, but the bigger issue to me would be that the expected ROI is much smaller, which you have to account for by playing a lot more volume.

There is going to be a fair bit of survivor bias. If the average is 90K, with a 50K SD, those who fall below one SD probably won't make it past their first year. Those who do get a big score might now be rolled enough to take a bad year or two, but I'd guess the shelf life for someone with that profile is destined to be out of poker at some point.

$300k in live volume is impossible without multiple $10ks, $25ks etc.

I live within a 200mi radius of over 2 dozen casinos. Maryland Live usually runs a monthly $1k which AFAIK is like tbe highest BI regular event within shouting distance of the Mason Dixon line.

No way in hell you can get even close to $300k in volume with the schedule thats usually available over the course of a year

And ROIs should shrink dramatically in almost all ultra high BI events; lets be realistic here--a $10k is like 99.9th percentile stakes maybe higher.

150k in live volume maybe is possible and that might require Herculean endurance and having no life besides going to MTTs. And a grandmaster (like 99.9th percentile skill or higher) might achieve 50% or more ROI (I suspect possibly more) but again the ultra high BI stuff will drag down aggregate ROI. If you can scratch out $75k in live EV Id be beyond impressed. And what would the hourly be? Would it even justify the opportunity cost of basically not being able to have a job lest you not have enough time to grind?

Online I think $500k in volume could be doable but thats another Herculean performance. And ROIs are lower. Id estimate $150k-$200k in EV for a grandmaster

People have this conception that the guys playing $250k buyin events must be winning million$ every year and maybe some of them have had several years with those kinds of results. Thats as much a function of having received 99.99999999th percentile rungood as it is being a 99.9999.....th percentile sicko. People do hit the Powerball (1:300M chance), people with no discernable skill or likeability get elected to the mere handful of public offices (a few hundred available out of hundreds of millions of citizens), people get hit by lightning and bitten by sharks etc.--really rare realizations do happen from time to time especially when theres millions of exposures like with the overall global poker MTT market.

If you're a pro you can easily book $100K+ just during the WSOP without playing a single $10K other than the main. I was there barely two weeks and had $20K and literally only played two events bigger than a $1K.

Look at the schedules for SHRPO - you can easily buy in for $20K plus in a two week period without playing the high rollers. There are plenty of WPT's, plenty of events running in Vegas all the time. Guys who grind some of the MSPT stops will fire 5-10 bullets at an $1100.

Getting to $300K in buy-ins is easier than it sounds, especially when you consider rebuys.

If you're playing $10K or $25K events on a regular basis, you're going to be WAY over $300K in buy-ins in a year. If you're a pro whose ABI is more like $5-10K you're almost certainly in for 7 figures worth of buy-ins a year, but you're also probably selling a significant amount of your action.

My broader point was that most players - even if they have a decent ROI - probably don't make a lot of money when you account for expenses and probably end up have to sell significant amounts of their action to lessen variance. So I can't imagine the typical MTT pro - even someone you might think is good - is clearing anywhere near six figures on a regular basis.

(which is why poker pros who play for a living tend to be cash game players)

Wow. That's a pretty stuff. I was not prepared for this.

To be honest: Poker has gotten thicker and thicker, but only the tournaments, the cash games got lower and lower.

So I thought you tournament guys are now the big guys! After all these cash game rounds, durrr actually tried a round of WSOP ME. And he got bored.

But this sounds quite depressing!

I thought it was finally all cool with the donkament croud. And now: it isn't. At all!

I mean I am a genuine cashgame grinder - low and midstakes -, made 10k a month, is this feasible doing tournaments?

Online tournaments would be just fine.

Live tournaments would be tough unless you're playing (and are rolled to play) a number of $10K+ tournaments. Online might be possible, but you'd have to play enormous volume and crush because ROI's in general are lower but especially at the higher stakes.

The way you can make money is to play cash, especially if you have access to good local games, because your expenses will be lower and you don't have to maintain nearly as big of a bankroll.

Live this year- I cashed for like $95-96k live and played about $20-22k in tourny buyins. 8 cashes, 2 wins, 53 tournies played.

Live tournament variance is insane. I’ve played somewhat seriously for years. It’s easy to play well and have a losing year. I recommend trying your best to play lower field size mtts along with your lottery big field mtts. Also recommend trying to play best structures if possible as they offer more play and bigger roi even though they take longer.

From my play- I would say cash rate is roughly 10-20% on a yearly basis. I’m fine if someone is cashing at a 7-12% cash rate but hopefully they are playing very aggro and taking advantage of chipping up from this when they “run good”. 15-20% seems achievable for good mtt players that aren’t making a lot of punty mistakes (stuff that recs do).

I would learn cash if you want to make a yearly income. I went to vegas this summer and went 1/30 in mtts. I don’t consider the play that good in vegas honestly. One can run poorly for what seems like a large sample but honestly isn’t. It’s easy to play 100 tournies in a year and min cash 5 of them for 90buyins lost lol. Live is difficult because you almost never can get a large enough sample on a yearly basis like online (online sadly is much more difficult).

Learn cash- become a winner at 2/5 or higher and just print money long run in good games. Weekends when people are drinking etc


Btw my stats for 2023- I’m worried I’ll return to the mean and run meh in 2024 and 2025. Something I’m happy about- I feel I understand tourny variance now Vs when I started playing online way back in the day and then as a backed horse on tilt/stars. I feel bad for folks that have an early mtt win and then donk off too much bc they don’t understand standard variance of mtts. 2 wins in a year is insanely run good. I’m currently in a $30k downswing online playing mtts too high for my level most likely but yea variance can be brutal folks.

I think the people are under estimating MTT grinder earnings on the higher end. It is possible to bink a high buy-in tournament that will give the player $500K - $1M+ in winnings (even online) and there are so many tournaments with a top prize that is greater than

However, I think it is very difficult to have a +EV for live tournaments after you factor in travel costs (unless you are playing high roller tournaments +$10K and +$25K buyin events).
Let's say you go to Vegas for 2 weeks and stay at hotel. After you factor in hotel costs (even if you are staying at a lower tier hotel) and food costs, you need to have a very high ROI to make these tournaments a profitable venture).

If you are playing online and live in a lower cost area, that is much more feasible.

I would like to also echo the statements of the other ppl who mention how insane the variance is in big MTTs. It really is crazy. You need to do some swaps with other players or sell a piece of yourself if you want consistency.

Simple solution to that problem. Move to Vegas. You can get plenty of volume in here. Not super expensive to live. Plenty of soft fields.

If you do it right, you can easily stay in vegas for free if you degen punt money one trip. Like for example after I made $40-50k earlier this year betting the Kentucky derby due to insane luck, I lost $8k in vegas at mgm and Venetian properties. Some people would say this is degen. I just lost 8k and got 8k in losses to write off and now I can stay at some of the bottom tier mgm properties for almost free and Venetian 3 nights. Just gotta pay resort fees but now I can go to vegas whenever I want and know I basically have cheap hotel at a solid property (think mgm grand, aria during down season, Venetian, etc).

Me personally- I play the game for fun. I try to make money in tournies etc but I understand I’m going to lose most years due to not enough volume. The money lost doesn’t bother me bc I know I’m +ev in tournies and just going to run over fields especially at final tables due to past online experience and study.

I think most recs and even serious mtters should just realize it’s a losing proposition but a fun activity where you can make money if lucky in mtts. I consider poker trips like a vacation and expect to lose all money I bring. I never personally gamble with money I’m not perfectly fine with losing. I feel the people with gambling problems are the ones that don’t expect to lose honestly or think they are better than the game or can beat sports betting. I find it funny how people buy multiple entries into good structure mtts. If I was say 5-6 bullets into a tourny and min cashed- I would get like sht and go wow I’m a fool. I never understand the guys that will continually fire in a tourny and just play like total goons taking a ton of high variance spots when they should play just basic ABC poker strat.

There is this guy local that looks like a boss on Hendon mob. He final tables a lot of events etc. he tells me he will lose $10k playing blackjack, he will fire multiple entries into these re entry tournys. My question is how much money is this guy punting bc he has to be spewing money. I love when he’s at my table bc he spazzes and will spew chips if you pick up a nutty hand against him. It’s funny I feel a lot more folks than you would think will fire multiple entires at a tourny where it’s just stupid at a certain point.


My thoughts on variance- just realize how difficult it is to win a tourny and how much needs to go right to win. I’ve won 3 live tournies. It’s insane how well you have to run. Idk how many tournies I’ve played live? I’m going to guess 250-300 over 15 years? I would never get too down on a result if it doesn’t go your way. If you lose a flip late in the money but are supposed to get the chips in- nothing you can do. The game can be cruel. I feel bad for the people that say lose like AA vs QQ at a final table when QQ flops a set. If you can be even keel and not let the suck outs bother you- you can make it in the game long run. Me personally- I would get angry back in the day when I got unlucky in a $400-1k tourny. I lost AA to kk and QQ a few weeks back in a 1k at my higher buy in range. It’s standard. No reason to get mad or upset. After a while in poker, the bad beats start to not sting too bad honestly.

My attitude on live poker- play cash if you want to make a living and throw tournies in as a side hustle for fun. Tournies are not the answer unless you can play thousands of online tournies and have a proven edge at online like an roi of say 20% or above. I think cash is best thing to grind bc I feel if you can beat day 2/5 or 5/10- you are going to crush live tournaments. Even a 1/3 winner is going to crush live tournies.

I think the best advice I've gotten about playing poker is that you should consider it a side hustle, and not your full-time profession. While I know a few grinders who eek out a living playing mid-stakes MTT's or cash, it's really hard and it's really swingy and many of them have had to resort to getting regular jobs at various points in their lives to make money.

Most of the more successful players I see at MSPT or RunGood stops tend to not be pros, but professionals (in other fields) or businessmen who just happen to take the game seriously. In some cases, the "pros" are actually worse players.

I've got about 80 tournament entries under my belt this year, the most I've ever had in a single year. I took a shot at the main event. I sold pieces of myself so I could get in more volume. I hired a coach and had weekly study sessions. I had a $20K score, won three live daily tournaments and finished second in three others.

I'm probably playing about as well as I've ever played....and I'm literally even for the year. (to be fair, losing $10K in one tournament can do that)

Making money in poker is hard, man.

Yeah, in 2005 when I was paying $300 a month in rent and suddenly spiked a 10k score, it was a lot easier to go pro because my expenses were so much lower. Now prices are higher, fields are tougher, and payouts are flatter, and it's much harder to generate that kind of return, let alone while also clearing a monthly nut. So it's become a part-time thing for me, unless I ever make enough again to play high enough to live off my winnings. But I'm not planning for that; I'm just fortunate to be in a spot where I can keep playing and don't have to spend what I make anymore, so I'll move up as my bankroll allows and see what happens.

I bet you can grind out 100k a year online if you're smart about it - I did this for a number of years around a 110 ABI just game selecting really well. Focused on the US sites, played some small euro sites - the big thing is playing smaller field tournies so the variance is less. Live is a different animal - the rake/time component is so bad that you need to play higher stakes and ultimately variance is much more of a factor. I don't think live is sustainable unless you're already wealthy or are single with no spouse/kids and want to have an adventure. If you start a family the . last thing you want to do is be traveling to live tournies grinding out a mediocre living

Almost everyone gets bitten by sharks in Australia mate. Pretty much a rite of passage. There’s even a Cub Scout badge for it.

Hey guys, ex cash pro here.

This thread has been so insightful. Thank you all for your input!

As a cash game grinder, you can have your massive downswings, 30, 50, rarely even 100 buy-ins deep.
But variance seems to be a lot less.

I quit this life - as a cash pro -, because: ... hm, let me think actually. I was too bored of this life: sitting in front of a
computer clicking buttons, creating .... NOTHING!

And then I stopped winning.
Or maybe it was the other way around.
Hard to tell afterwards.

But I was making steady 3-5k per month net income which in Europe was 10 years ago much better than
a gradutate job.


But that was an online cash game grinder existence with at least 50x more hands than live.

Not a live MTT grinder existence.

So interesting.

You know: You hear these songs about Fedor Holz and other lucky guys, but - although they are
undoubtedly very skilled - they are also very lucky.

But carry on, please. This was just a break insight from the cash game front. Hope this helped a bit.

I go buy some more popcorn.

I would ask very genuinely whether you'd need more than one person's fingers and toes to tally up how many people are jetting around the world playing every single $10k+ live tournament.

I honestly dont know how big that market is and its possible I'm underestimating it.

Even if someone does like $1M in live buy ins each year, on average how much would actually be retained by the competitor and not sold off to investors?

What you're describing seems like literally 1/50000 poker players give or take

For any normal people with jobs and/or families I dont think more than low six figs volume is possible live. Even if you pump in $50k during the WSOP youre just not gonna find many events >=$1k unless you travel great lengths.

I interpreted "income" to mean EV.

Obviously each year some people will become millionaires winninga poker tournament but thats pretty rare to get an event that big

And like even if you took a NASA supercomputer and got it talking to a a database with 20 trillions hands and unleashed it on the poker world you probably still wouldnt reasonably expect more than a few hundo k in EV each year.

The very best competitors are basically playing Powerball where you only need 4.5 numbers instead of 5. The absolute difference is so small.

I've been called a good reg. I just compiled my annual wins and losses, here are some stats for my year.

175 MTT entries ranging from $100 to $1500. (Most of the entries are the $200 $10k guarantee which runs twice a week.)
ABI $206.
22 cashes ranging from $250 to $18k. Average of $2227.
Profit $12,999 with ROI 37%.

Bottom line is that my hourly sucks and I would probably be better off doing something else.

Ya live is a huge time suck and expenses/rake are higher than online. If you enjoy it then so be it, but I think you'd need a much higher ABI to make it worthwhile.