I am wondering if any of you winning players play different when you know you are at a table full of fish. I know there are fish at every table and hell I might be one of them but... I found myself at a table tonight where i was the best player at the table by far. ( I know thats hard to imagine lol) Anyway ICM calculators are based on equal skill right? So if the skill level is not equal how should that effect my play?

Poker Stars $6.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t100/t200 Blinds - 4 players
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked

SB: t5900
Hero (BB): t957
CO: t1410
BTN: t5233

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with Q 7
1 fold, BTN calls t200, 1 fold, Hero checks

Flop: (t500) T J Q (2 players)
Hero bets t757 all in, BTN calls t757

Turn: (t2014) A (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t2014) 8 (2 players - 1 is all in)


I know i am not suppose to be results oriented but i am wondering if anybody would play this differently?

Thanks

Include an edge requirement on your ICM calculation. At a $6, expecting an edge up to 0.5 in high variance situations (marginal calls) can be okay, but you won't lose much by just taking every edge over 0.1 you can get. At these lowest stakes I'd probably pass up on all edges <0.05 as a medium stack. I'd pass no edges up if I was the short stack. As the chip leader I'd probably pass up quite a few small edges against donks, basically because I will my money in good more than once with a chip advantage so I can afford to pick my spots far more; against good players they will wear your chip lead down much faster with more aggressive play so you can't afford to wait.



In this hand, why were you shoving? I think it's okay, because he might call with A hi or even a K or a 9 (if they are real donkeys), but it is quite important you understand what you are causing to happen when you shove.

When I play regulars, I pass quite a few marginal shoves because I feel that a large component of my skill edge over the other players is that I can pick decent spots. In turbos, not so much, because you don't get enough spots, so I'd tend to take any edge I can get.

It was a very drawy board and so I felt if he had any kind of draw I had to make him pay to see it. I guess I could have checked the flop but he is going to take a stab at it if i do considering my stack size. Then I either have to call for all my money or fold top pair.

If he is taking a stab at it with any two you should be happy to call for all your money with top pair imo.

ICM assumes that everyone has equal skill it becomes much harder to model if you have different skill levels. How much better are you than someone? Why are you so much better than someone? If you are better because of early play than you should obv take thinner edges than if you are the best pushbot ever. this hand is standard you have tp and like pot behind not much else you can really do.

What ICM also does not take into account is the probability of the other players busting each other and moving you up the money. In a sense your seat equity is increased, so optimally, you should tighten up a little bit, both shoves and calls - this is another way of saying that you should adjust your SNGPT edge ...

EG imagine equal stacks, the fish tendency to bust each other means your stack is worth more than their's

ICM doesnt recognize skill as anything really, its only valuating your static chip stack.

This is why I think ICM is kinda flawed and think people emphasize calcs over learning the actual concepts, I dont think ICM directly correlates with the actual real value of your stack but it coincides very closely most of the time, there are too many ignored variables for it to truly measure your tournament equity.

Dude, you are the smallest stack and you have less than 5bb.
You got a free flop and made top pair.

The only thing I do differently is the double fistpump victory dance before shoving.

What has this got to do with ICM?

Just wondering how it changes the way good players look at icm when the entire table is full of horrible players thats all. Just looking for views and thoughts on it.

chips don't have any particular skill by themselves afaik.

I think you're being too facetious. If you are facing a shove for all your chips and you have 2K fourhanded, that you are skilled enough to fold KJ to Mr Tight and that Mr Loose isn't is worth $$$. It can be as simple as that.

I'm about 100% sure you miss the point of ICM

generally when playing donks you should push wider and call tighter as far as late game goes.

the fact that ICM is based on equal skill doesnt directly change your decision making. you just push wider because they frequently call too tight and you call tighter because they dont know to push lots of hands.

if anything all it means is that if your at a table full of donks, INBETWEEN HANDS, your equity is probably a small % higher than what an even chip count distribution says, and theirs is probably a little lower.

but i think whiel youre making a push/fold decision, all that matters is their range

How did you get so short if you are the best player by far?

I'm 110% sure that you're so busy waving your **** around that you missed that we're answering the question whether we can make decisions strictly based on ICM given that ICM assumes equal skill.

Thanks pineapple for pointing that out.



I like the idea of calling a little tighter. As far as pushing wider, I agree they don't think K5 is better then J10, but they do love thier A rag.

Who the F ever said to make decisions strictly based on ICM?

But continue your discussions, I'm sure this is all fascinating.

You should be very reluctant to play a big pot with top pair or overpair on a drawy board like this. When you're ahead, a pair and draw has plenty of outs/equity against you. But when you're behind (two pair, made straight), you're crushed.

I don't know. Did you?


Well, we could all just stick to trying to make the OP feel small, I suppose.

OP, are you considering check folding this hand because you can "find better spots"? Seriously work on maximizing value for particular hands not this passing up hands crap, especially in hands like these (you have like 4 blinds here LOL). This misapplied concept in the OP got a big WTF from me ? : (

What do you do when you are in the SB the next hand with 4bb?

I think he meant that Wiz tells him to shove pre and he thinks he shouldn't.

I don't really understand why you think that "maximising value" for a particular hand cannot include considering how future hands might play. That seems a really limited way to think about your choices. Sometimes passing the third ATC shove BvB at t200a25 allows you to make one with greater fold equity at t400, for example. Obviously he should shove here.

"I think he meant that Wiz tells him to shove pre and he thinks he shouldn't."

Ahh ok. Well I still think with 4 blinds you shouldn't be looking to preserve your skill edge by avoiding gambles , like you shouldnt be thinking about your skill edge here preflop when making this decision. I dont disagree with the concept in general though. Your example is reasonable, I think this one is a bit ridiculous.

I could be completely wrong and your skill edge should be a huge major consideration whether or not to shove pre here, I really know jack**** about poker.

What I said obviously doesn't apply to <10bb situations. I was just making a general comment about the cards. Which didn't really apply to the topic, I guess. Oops.