Blessings unto all!!

The hand in question.

Blinds 300/500/500

UTG (100k stack and frequent limper) limps under the gun.
Hero: JJ (45k stack) makes it 1.5k
SB (13.4k stack): Calls 1.5k
UTG: Calls 1.5k

Flop 8-6-3 rainbow

SB: Shoves for 12k
UTG: Makes it 30k
Hero: ???? WHAT DO YOU DO?

What do you do with JJ on the cutoff and why? Thanks!

Bigger preflop. At least 4x even 5x ok.

Flop seems like a super easy fold

What hand range are you putting UTG on that limps frequently for the fold? Obviously we’re crushing the mini all in SB range.

Agree with bigger pre. Would look to go at least 2.5K accounting for the SB, BB, BB ante and limper.

As played, this is a call at a minimum and I can make a pretty good argument to raise, perhaps even getting stacks in considering there's dead money in the pot and the SPR isn't particularly big.

While sure, villain is going to have sets and trapped AA/KK sometimes, he's also going to have stuff like TT, 99, and 8x even if he has few bluffs.

The bet to hero is 30k and hero has 43.5k behind. There's not really an option other than playing for stacks.

Only way I think I can fold this is if I have strong evidence that UTG will limp QQ+ (and then not limp-raise for some reason) or that their limp range is heavily weighted toward small pairs, or if either UTG or SB is the kind of overly scared live player who will just donk pile money in as soon as they hit a big hand like a set.

Yeah, I miscalculated pot size. This is just a pretty easy jam.

I would likely make it 2200 preflop (like 4.5x)

I'm all in on the flop because I think if UTG had a set they might just call to get us to stay in with an overpair. But if they have a set so be it. The bet sizing though is atrocious it should really be a jam rather than 30,000.

My opinion about UTG is that if he had limped with QQ+ he would always raise preflop (to like 7500) after SB called. And I have never seen a QQ limp and KK only once. AA though a lot of times. Lately I have seen AK a few times as well (which I think is amazingly bad)...

Def there are players that will limp QQ/KK and then go banana (RIP Pat Patterson) when no A or K comes.

Any other info on these players would be great. Has SB overbet before? Been jamming? Or sat quietly?

Yeah, whenever people limp I always make sure to see what they're limping with vs. what they're raising with. People have different limping strategies but it's often low to medium pairs which is a little concerning. Still, it's hard to fold given SB could have something like 54 and UTG denying equity with 99/A8.

I am way out of step here, obviously.

You have SB jamming 2x pot. He didn't close the action preflop. What draws does he have? Yes, there are a lot of flopped straight draws if this was the BB defending, but I just don't see stuff like 75o in his range. That leaves some sets, and perhaps he has some other pocket pairs he is spazzing with. Sure, he can have some 97s, 75s, 54s, but then he will also have 86s and maybe the other 2 pair as well.

Then, You have a passive player taking an aggressive action into our uncapped range, with no fold equity from the original bettor. Must be a real hand. Do they really take this line with A8/99? I guess they could. I'd range them much stronger than that, to hands that mostly beat ours, ie trapped Aces, sets, and maybe the occasional strange 2 pair.

This was a great flop for our hand, but given the action in front of us it has gotten worse. Everyone seems to think we can still play for stacks here, but putting in 90BB in a 3 way pot where both players like their hand, and we have 'just' an overpair? Call me a nit, I still don't see how we are good here enough to do this. And, if we are, we still get to play with at least one of these guys with plenty of chips in our stack.

SB has been pretty insignificant. A little passive, lost chunks in non show down situations.

UTG is splashy and loves limping.

With the SB shoving 12k, I look at him as being 3rd place every time in this spot when we have JJ and UTG making it 30k. Almost insignificant at this point?

An over pair is going to likely 3 bet pre from UTG once Hero opens so I am taking AA/KK/QQ out of his range because at that point he would want to isolate pre and go heads up with opener or play for stacks with SB.

I am taking sets out of his range because I feel like it is reckless to not just flat there with all the equity he has in that spot.

Given these reads, it's a very easy call. I am much more concerned about SB than you seem to be. When a "passive" player wakes up and rips into 2 players, one who showed preflop strength, for twice the pot, that is concerning.

I feel like I cry and fold here and then would have won and mutter "what are you guys doing?" a lot.

It's concerning, but would he really 2x overbet the pot with a set? Slowplaying on a board like this seems wise, especially multiway, and even if he was going to donk, he would donk for less, no? It seems more like a draw or vulnerable two pair. If he has 86 and UTG has ~99 we still have to put the money in because we have outs and almost always beat UTG.

In fact, it doesn't make sense for UTG to do this with a set either on such a dry board, so I wouldn't worry we're up against that, and limp-calling with QQ/KK/AA is such an obscure play that I wouldn't worry about that either. I think we're going to be up against a combo of overpairs/top pair, two pair, and draws, and since we have great equity against that and can win a side pot even when we lose the main, I go for it here.

Don't you know he always gets sucked out, mannnnn???

I shrug called a dude who jammed $200 in a 1/3 cash game into a $12 pot when I had 83 in the BB in an unraised pot on 832 and he showed me 88.

I just don't see "passive" guys hopping up and ripping 2x pot with 54 on 863 or whatever. Def could have 86, could also have 99 or TT himself. Not saying it's a clear fold, but I share 3for3's stated reservations.

Ok, so this was my buddies hand and we were going over it and I said I would go over it with the forum here.

1. You guys are great. I am going to be much more active in the tournament strategy threads here.

2. Do you want the results now? Or should I wait a day or 2 for further discussion?

Thanks all!

The thing is, SB's shove doesn't really make sense with any hand. I know it's not easy or comfortable to get in 90BB with one pair, but we really don't want to just be assigning the range for bets that don't make sense to "all the hands that beat us," either.

And the overbet changes the range for UTG, too. If SB leads out, UTG raises, SB 3-bet shoves, and UTG 4-bets, then you can be a lot more confident you're behind. But while the shove range is presumably different from a regular SB lead, it also means UTG is going to raise anything they think is ahead of SB but vulnerable, whereas if we're going 3 or 4 bets the ranges are going to be a lot tighter and stronger.

I think there's just way too much assuming that UTG only has top of range here. Even if somehow the SB is nutted (which I doubt) we can still win piles against the UTG on the side.

Sure, we're going to be beat a good percentage of the time. UTG is going to flop some sets. He might have trapped AA. But when UTG has 99 or A8 and panic shoves because they don't want us to outdraw them or some nonsense (which is going to happen in a $600 tournament way more than you think, especially with this player type) we scoop this pot a ton.

Give Villain that range; AA,A8,99,88,66,33, and we are a small underdog for the side. It might get a little tricky, since the SB shoving range might block some of these hands; they might have 8x themselves for example.

FWIW, I think the trap hand here might be KK more often than AA. Fishy thinking goes something like: I get stacked by AA either way, but if I just trap here, I can get away when an Ace flops, and not lose my stack to Ax.

The nice thing about these spots is that they aren't solvable; No solver has a limp range, nor, as pointed out by others, the SB jamming 2x pot isn't a thing.

Thus this all gets to our experience in these street poker hands. What we really need is a better read on UTG.

Personally, I pay the most attention to those that are chronic limpers. Do they have a raising range? Do they like to trap? What does it mean when they limp/call then get aggressive. Since these things aren't GTO, ranging them is more important than trying to figure out a player who is playing somewhat standard.

Are we saying UTG can’t have K8 or a bluff? Once you add those types of hands into the mix, we are absolutely fine vs UTG.

UTG is bluffing into an empty side pot over a 2x pot jam?

Yeah I don't think UTG is ever bluffing, but as splashy as he is he could have a lot of 8x.

The fact that even if the SB is strong we still end up better off if we beat UTG for the side pot but lose to the SB than we would be if we fold, inclines me more to call as well.

Also I agree on going a little bigger preflop. 3.5x at the absolute minimum but against a loose/splashy player this deep I'd be more inclined to go 4-4.5x.

1. Why is it obvious what the SB is doing? They are putting 24BBs into an 11BB pot. I doubt that is a thing. You seem convinced they never do this with better than one pair. Sure, they can have draws, but they can also have sets, and at least 86s if they have draws. In my experience, these strange overbet shoves are often exactly 2 pair; they are ahead of our hand, but have a very vulnerable holding. I am guessing from your 'obviously ahead' they have 8x or worse.

2. Then the limper (once again, not a thing) jams with zero fold equity vs the all in. They pretty much have to have a hand. Sure, it can be exactly TT/99 or 8x, but they clearly have all the sets in range (from virtually every limper I have ever seen, small pairs are their most common hands).

You know the results, so perhaps you are biased against the SB having a strong hand.

Some of these comments are confusing me, isn’t pot 10k when sb rips 12?

Then a limping donk with a monster stack puts in a decent iso?

Sure he has some traps, but he also has tons of dogshit.

Ship and print? Correct me if I’m wrong please.