i agree with curtains. it cant be a "spite call"/metagame call in this spot. the ev from pushing ATC is too great.

are you serious?

Almost no one regularly calls with QJo here, even horrible players. I suspect it's usually +EV to push against anyone in this spot, unless they are completely bat**** insane, in which case I'll definitely consider folding. A good player who knows that the call they are making is terrible....I'll never fold to them.

The fact is that we are making the correct play, the caller is making the wrong play. I'm not going to let someone who is good make the wrong play to encourage me to make the wrong play in the future. That's just a recipe for disaster over the longrun IMO.

curtains if you ever write a book, about anything, i will buy two of it.

Yeah, and you shouldn't adjust. You should keep playing correctly and the one who is actually playing like an idiot should eventually adjust.

He calls because he doesnt play much according to ICM and trying to cash but plays to get 1st instead, if you search spacegravys 9mans results and then take sitngo finish positions distribution he has an abnormaly high number of 4th and 1st place finishes compared to 2nd,3rd. Most SNG players have very similar number of 4th and 3th place finishes, for example:

azntracker had 1069 3rds and 1023 4ths
ddbeast 631 3rds and 649 4ths
scossett 1131 3rds and 1160 4ths

And spacegravy had

1034 3rd and as much as 1247!!! 4ths and as much 1413 1st which is 40% more then 3rd places while the other players dont have more then 10% diference between 1,2,3,4 place.

Its very obvious spacegravy wont bother about dumb things like ICM and will simply snap anything which is chip EV+, otherwise he wouldnt have numbers anywhere near close to those. I took data from last year.

just expressing curiosity. it's not like i expressed my thoughts as "facts."

Problem is that if you start adjusting to him, then theoretically his style of play can make him the best SnG player around, but only if you start playing theoretically badly against him. I say screw him, if he wants to keep burning his money along with ours, I think we should sadly just go along with it. It's a bad situation but I don't see what else we can do, because by folding you are making him too strong.

you prob don't understand what is icm at all to say that

This has nothing to do with the long run or ever getting to play such a spot again... OP has a hand, he is pushing it, he is pushing ATC, so his hand might be any hand, we don't know which. So we average our calling EV over all hands he might have and we get -2%. He has only one hand and in this case that is J2o, if we know that we can call (I guess) and should do something more constructive with our psychic abilities, if we don't we should fold.

My guess is good player made bad move, **** happens... sometimes.

Also:
Yeah, but he not only needs to make this "bad" occasionally, he needs to make it always for it be correct for OP to start shoving 55(-75)% less. Every time he picks up QJo or any other hand in this 10(-20)% interval here, he is burning 55*9*0.02=$10 as long as OP doesn't adjust. And if OP adjust to shoving only 45% and spacegravy keeps making these calls to stop OP from just adjusting back to shoving ATC he is making solid -6.75% calls and is burning 55*9*0.0675=$33. That is lot of money he is risking on the assumption that OP notices these spitecalls, adjusts fast, doesn't adjust back and doesn't spite-push.

Again, -2% is A LOT I don't see any meta-game stuff to justify this, just a bad move.

I don't think of myself as being enough of a reg for there to be much of a dynamic, but if there was one I'd think his impression of me would be that I'd actually be too tight in this spot. Anyone with a current read who wants disagree, let me know (or are you trying to tell me something LJ?).

In this specific spot I find it hard to imagine a kind of player against whom I wouldn't shove (even really bad players won't usually light money on fire here). And I'm almost sure one of my biggest leaks is not shoving enough BvB. I think curtains is right that not shoving here vs a reg because you might get spite-called is bad.

I think this is most likely the case, but I'm not convinced there's not something to Borys' idea, which is why I'm curious. Since every $60 this month has gravy in it, might as well figure out if this is going to be standard. :-)

Well, certainly no extra-ICM considerations can make up for -2%. But for metagame, if OP adjusts his game vs. gravy at all, then it was probably worth it.

Yeah, but like curtains has pointed out, why would you ever adjust vs a regular. If you're forcing him to make the -EV decisions, it's a big game of chicken he can only lose, unless his plan is to light both our money on fire on the assumption mine will run out before his (which is still going to cost an absurd amount in the long run if his opponents are properly rolled).

No you both lose when he calls there. But unfortunately if you back down he wins metagame. So you have to keep pushing.

I have a feeling if he knows you are 2p2 he doesn't make that call. Vs. crappier regs you see all the time, as many games as he plays, I could see that definitely being worth it.

no, i don't know who you are at stars.

just sorta guessing he was frustrated with you because i have played about 1000 sngs with gravy and have never seen that type of call.

also, gravy is human, he may have just made a mistake.

interesting data borys.

but gravy does play by icm and typically does not make that play. he was eithter tired of OP, tired of sngs in general, or just made a mistake. i think if gravy reads the thread he will say it was not a good call and something he does not normally do.

Seriously though. Vs. a typical crappy nit reg who shoves too wide and calls a little too wide, (not saying OP since i have no idea who he is, just saying in general) this could be worth it. Especially when you play 200 SNGs/day. Sacrifice $10 on one hand if they'll make a note and back off? Totally worth it. It's just a delicate dance to get them to think you can actually get FED UP, or you think QJ is good because it's ahead of their range or w/e, and not have them think you're deliberately trying to get them to change their range.

Suzzer: If he can reasonably assume that, by doing this one time and one time only, there is a decent chance his opponent will make a note and change his range vs. him. And if its an opponent he'll play often. Then sure, you are right, I'm not and this is actually a good play. I have no idea if this is the case though...

As I said before, I suspect it's just a mistake too (there are certainly BvB spots where QJo is a snap and he's playing ridiculous volume right now). Even if I've ticked him off somehow in the 150 games I've played with him (20% at the 16s a long time ago), there really ought to be people he's more interested in spiting for metagame.

Well keep in mind, when you play that kind of volume at the same level, it changes the rules somewhat. Things that aren't worth it when you see the same dude 20x a week become worth a shot when you see him 400x/week. Also I make notes when bad players call loose. Obviously with gravy I'd know it was metagame and not change. But kinda bad regs who do somewhat similar **** themselves, but because they are fed up or just think if they're ahead of your range with something like ATo they should call, might not realize it's just for metagame. Don't make the mistake of overestimating your opponents.

IE - $60, 18-man bubble, notice shorty sitting out:

PokerStars Game #25112667962: Tournament #142002643, $55+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2009/02/19 7:53:46 ET
Table '142002643 2' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: anfo500 (1202 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: EuroPlayer66 (3168 in chips)
Seat 5: Rockytherock (10895 in chips)
Seat 6: suzzer99 (8930 in chips)
Seat 9: aanton88 (2805 in chips)
anfo500: posts the ante 50
EuroPlayer66: posts the ante 50
Rockytherock: posts the ante 50
suzzer99: posts the ante 50
aanton88: posts the ante 50
aanton88: posts small blind 300
anfo500: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to suzzer99 [6d Jc]
EuroPlayer66: folds
Rockytherock: folds
suzzer99: raises 8280 to 8880 and is all-in
aanton88: calls 2455 and is all-in
anfo500: folds
Uncalled bet (6125) returned to suzzer99
*** FLOP *** [2s 7d Jh]
*** TURN *** [2s 7d Jh] [4h]
*** RIVER *** [2s 7d Jh 4h] [7h]
suzzer99 said, "why?"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
aanton88: shows [Kh 8h] (a flush, King high)
suzzer99: shows [6d Jc] (two pair, Jacks and Sevens)

aanton88 said, "you push too much"
suzzer99 said, "that was a ridic call"
aanton88 said, "no suzzer"
aanton88 said, "Khigh"


I seriously doubt this was for metagame. This was FED UP. Everyone has their breaking point.

It definitely should. When I said that I "just don't know whether that (metagame stuff justifies the push) was the case", that's what I meant, I just never played the volume and the stakes these guys do.

Not to derail, but is there a point to tapping the glass there Suzzer? I ask seriously, since it seems to me that "whining" about it in chat is likely to get you more spite from this guy and/or get him thinking about making correct plays, neither of which is good in the long run.

Meh. I think it's fairly neutral either way. If I can tap the glass and get them to think twice about making ******ed calls vs. me, I'll do it. Phil Hellmuth style.

Is the whole thread based on assumption that spacegravy doesnt make mistakes?