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5- another omg this one is ez spacegravy 5- another omg this one is ez spacegravy

04-10-2008 , 01:30 PM
who is villian? they are betting this hand like a donk. 300 on this flop vs anyone is insane and his line makes no sense. also our flop call looks really weird because we are basically committed if he knows us well. I dont think i could fold just because i hate being exploited by regs and obv folding is hugely exploitable.
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04-10-2008 , 01:34 PM
so everyone agrees he has 99, 99% of the time right?
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04-10-2008 , 01:35 PM
It looks more like AK to me.
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04-10-2008 , 01:45 PM
shoving pre is +0.9 if he opens 10% and calls with 2%.
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04-10-2008 , 01:48 PM
If you fold this now then you will have to "learn" to fold AK against this pf raise in future, unless you are going to mix up your calling range (which is weird imo).
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04-10-2008 , 01:57 PM
I post on 2p2 and haven't open limped 5 handed since I played on Eurobet. I also can't imagine a winning reg at these stakes limiting his 5 handed opening range to AQ/99 or whatever. That said, this feels really foldy to me but it depends on the player obv.

Of course sometimes straightforward, winning players do some weird ****..

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1942515
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04-10-2008 , 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_poker
If you fold this now then you will have to "learn" to fold AK against this pf raise in future, unless you are going to mix up your calling range (which is weird imo).
Why?
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04-10-2008 , 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacegravy
Ya fo sho, but would he really bet the turn with these hands [KQ, KJs], he's just turning his hand into a bluff if he does.
But if you throw out AA/AK/KQ-KJ then all he is betting is KK and 99 and the only hand we can call with is KK. And since KK is heavily discounted from our range (or he holds it), there is nothing that we can call the turn with which means that he should bet no matter what he holds. Just playing John Nash advocate here.

To me it all comes down to the read. I know some straight ahead winners that I would call and some I'd fold to. For example it would be an easy fold against me though I'm not exactly an ABC winning player. I'd gladly call against someone like the_rotter (I have no idea if he is a winner or not).
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04-10-2008 , 02:20 PM
he probably puts you on JJ,TT or something like that and thinks he can bluff you of your hand with his AQ. I think calling pre OOP is a big mistake.
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04-10-2008 , 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bones
Why?
If we aren't willing to get it in with him when we hit a Kxx flop then why are we playing this hand preflop? What are hoping for? AAK, AKK, AKx, AAx or KKx? That seems a bit thin.

If we are calling a bet on the flop surely it is because we think are ahead of his range and hope he is going to bet the turn so we can get it in. Otherwise we are effectively drawing to what? The other kings? An ace?

The way gravy has played this suggests he should fold AK preflop against this player with these positions & stack sizes.
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04-10-2008 , 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_poker
If we aren't willing to get it in with him when we hit a Kxx flop then why are we playing this hand preflop? What are hoping for? AAK, AKK, AKx, AAx or KKx? That seems a bit thin.

If we are calling a bet on the flop surely it is because we think are ahead of his range and hope he is going to bet the turn so we can get it in. Otherwise we are effectively drawing to what? The other kings? An ace?

The way gravy has played this suggests he should fold AK preflop against this player with these positions & stack sizes.
You don't think each action changes his range? Do you think he plays every single hand in his pf range the exact same postflop on this board (or any board)?
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04-10-2008 , 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bones
You don't think each action changes his range? Do you think he plays every single hand in his pf range the exact same postflop on this board (or any board)?
Obv they do. But then why are we calling his flop bet? What part of his range do you discount when he shoves the turn? Are you advocating a fold because you "don't know" what part of his range he will be aggressive with?

Do we check because we hope he will check? What part of his range do you expect him to do that with? Are we calling a small bet, then folding the river to a smaller shove?

I don't understand the flop call.
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04-10-2008 , 02:35 PM
I don't know the player in question and gravy gave us nothing other than "straight foward winner" which could really mean anything. So I don't know exactly what I'd do facing different types of bets. But I feel like his range has significantly narrowed when he shoves the turn (again player dependent but it SHOULD narrow).
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04-10-2008 , 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bones
I don't know the player in question and gravy gave us nothing other than "straight foward winner" which could really mean anything. So I don't know exactly what I'd do facing different types of bets. But I feel like his range has significantly narrowed when he shoves the turn (again player dependent but it SHOULD narrow).
Okay. I can agree with that, but it seemed like some people were giving him super tight raising/betting ranges. If anything I would expect his shoving range here might widen; could he not put gravy on missed jacks or queens and be trying to fold him out by repping having the K/a monster?
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04-10-2008 , 02:50 PM
I'd reraise preflop.
As played, call and chop a lot.
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04-10-2008 , 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sence25
I'd reraise preflop.
As played, call and chop a lot.
That's real interesting. Thanks for the insight.
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04-10-2008 , 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeadbellyDan
That's real interesting. Thanks for the insight.
You're welcome boy.
If we put KQ/77 in villains raising range and think about how strong our 3bet looks, I think we gotta raise it up.
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04-10-2008 , 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_poker
I don't understand the flop call.
Yea. I don't understand a lot here.

And most important i don't see how we can show profit here after making call pf with AK against a player like this ( who putting us to tough decision by shoving turn on such board with us having TPTK after we trap? him by check check).
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04-10-2008 , 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisgallo
I think you committed yourself once you decided to flat call the flop, if he had AA or 99 nh, gg gravy.
A lot of people think this type of thing but its not really like that, previous action doesnt force you to make a call just because you put in money on previous streets. Like AK is prob ahead of his flop bet range but way behind his two barrel range so theres no reason to spew a still functional stack just because you "should".


I dont really like pf vs a player you categorize, raising and folding are prob both better than calling. Once you get to the flop I dont think you can do anything but call, on the turn I think you gotta fold cause a player like thats rarely going to turn a midpair into a bluff and has very few pure air hands so most of the hands in his range are vbetting and beating AK.
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04-10-2008 , 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kleath
A lot of people think this type of thing but its not really like that, previous action doesnt force you to make a call just because you put in money on previous streets. Like AK is prob ahead of his flop bet range but way behind his two barrel range so theres no reason to spew a still functional stack just because you "should".
The reason we check the flop is to induce bluffs, so now that we did induce one, we have to call. (or do you intend to check/fold this flop? then not reraising pre is even worse then it would be if we would call this now)
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04-10-2008 , 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staafy
The reason we check the flop is to induce bluffs, so now that we did induce one, we have to call. (or do you intend to check/fold this flop? then not reraising pre is even worse then it would be if we would call this now)
who said anything about folding flop? Im saying you dont have to call turn just cause you called flop because his flop range has waaaaaay more hands we beat than his 2 barrel range.
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04-10-2008 , 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kleath
who said anything about folding flop? Im saying you dont have to call turn just cause you called flop because his flop range has waaaaaay more hands we beat than his 2 barrel range.
This is a really interesting insight, and something I hadn't really put much thought into. I guess we are calling the flop hoping to get a cheap showdown against a non-tricky reg, that I can understand.

However, given we will play like this is there a danger that he will start 2-barelling us a lot wider?
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04-10-2008 , 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_poker
This is a really interesting insight, and something I hadn't really put much thought into. I guess we are calling the flop hoping to get a cheap showdown against a non-tricky reg, that I can understand.

However, given we will play like this is there a danger that he will start 2-barelling us a lot wider?
Sure theres the danger of it but most players that are as gravy described are playing 12+ tables and just arent going to be adapting correctly. Add to that this particular turn card isnt a very good bluff card AND most people regardless of background have trouble turning hands that supposedly have showdown value into bluffs, I think in this situation we can have a lot of confidence that he isnt bluffing too often.

Oh and most arent gonna vbet JJ or TT or anything here either.
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04-10-2008 , 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_poker
This is a really interesting insight, and something I hadn't really put much thought into. I guess we are calling the flop hoping to get a cheap showdown against a non-tricky reg, that I can understand.

However, given we will play like this is there a danger that he will start 2-barelling us a lot wider?
Only if he's real smart and observant and he's probably not.
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04-10-2008 , 03:54 PM
What if he checks turn and pushes river his great hands like one we are putting him on here since it takes 1 psb to get hero allin?

why doens't he do that and pushes turn? Its pretty obvious our calling range is is wider on river, and we arent drawing on flop.
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