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 itm bb vs mp shove  itm bb vs mp shove

06-26-2010 , 08:43 PM
Poker Stars $50+$5 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t800/t1600 Blinds + t150 - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP1: t13411 M = 3.58
MP2: t37982 M = 10.13
CO: t25204 M = 6.72
BTN: t98912 M = 26.38
SB: t38918 M = 10.38
BB: t24514 M = 6.54
UTG: t39689 M = 10.58
UTG+1: t14090 M = 3.76
UTG+2: t15671 M = 4.18

Pre Flop: (t3750)
3 folds, MP1 raises to t13261 all in, 5 folds


hero is bb, villain is not overly tight, and i expect him to be wide here, approx calling range?

also, i expect him to be wide, but given the limited read i have on him, how wide do you think he's shoving?
i suck at giving semi-randoms ranges.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-26-2010 , 08:44 PM
def fold you dont even have cards
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-26-2010 , 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMVERYRESPECTFUL
def fold you dont even have cards
i did fold brah don't you seee!
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-26-2010 , 08:46 PM
LOL, wats our calling range here tho, i think i made a gd fold, but want to hear some other perspectives.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-26-2010 , 08:48 PM
i thought it was a snap call

additional info - ~50 left from 800, 117 got paid.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-26-2010 , 08:49 PM
rly card dependent for sure
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-26-2010 , 08:50 PM
ace 9 off? i folded.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-26-2010 , 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMVERYRESPECTFUL
rly card dependent for sure
i asked for an approximate calling range, name some hands you probably call with?
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 02:41 AM
I would pass on marginal situations here. Winning isn't helping much, and losing takes away a lot of your moves. You've got a pretty good situation with small stacks to your left to pick on and a huge stack on your right that you can hope to double up through on a 3 bet shove if he/she is getting really aggressive. That being said, like AQ, AK, TT+. Normally I'm not too nitty, I just don't see the point of making like an A8 or KJ call here with 50 more people to get through to the final table.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 06:39 AM
bump.

and to make it simpler, it's ~11700 to call to win ~16900.

Last edited by pompeypoker; 06-27-2010 at 06:52 AM.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 06:52 AM
AT+ , 88+
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 06:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zegota
I would pass on marginal situations here. Winning isn't helping much, and losing takes away a lot of your moves. You've got a pretty good situation with small stacks to your left to pick on and a huge stack on your right that you can hope to double up through on a 3 bet shove if he/she is getting really aggressive. That being said, like AQ, AK, TT+. Normally I'm not too nitty, I just don't see the point of making like an A8 or KJ call here with 50 more people to get through to the final table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fumitto
AT+ , 88+
yeah im glad, i passed a9 off here, but pompry wasn't sure if this was profitable. for sum reason i suddenly thort i had a glaring leak by not calling here. REASSURANCE IS GOOD!
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 07:12 AM
we're getting good pot odds and both those ranges are passing hands considerably ahead of villains range (77 for example)
i'm willing to admit i was wrong, but not yet.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeypoker
we're getting good pot odds and both those ranges are passing hands considerably ahead of villains range (77 for example)
i'm willing to admit i was wrong, but not yet.
yes but as zegota said, if i call im having to go to showdown. i if i lose then im crippled i dont have to take this spot, and can stil chip up without having to. where as i can still 3bet shove late pos opens.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 12:53 PM
ok here's some nash ranges, villain can push 29.1%, 22+ A2s+ A4o+ K7s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ 98s 87s

and we should call 25.5%, 22+ A2s+ A3o+ K8s+ KTo+ QTs+ QJo JTs

because of ICM and that people don't call optimally wide anyway, villain can profitably push wider.

so i'm not at all convinced A9 is a fold yet.

EDIT: to expand on my "read" of villain, he's made some marginal (but good) shoves/reshoves, so he could be good, or a fish, but he's definitely not overly tight.

Last edited by pompeypoker; 06-27-2010 at 01:03 PM.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeypoker
i asked for an approximate calling range, name some hands you probably call with?
AJ+, 99+
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 03:36 PM
I'm not sure how you got 29.1 or 25.5%, but it doesn't really matter. Personally, if I thought he was shoving with 29.1%, I would only call with top 15% or so in any situation, unless it was like a KO tourney and/or I had a big stack. Your math may be right from a chip EV perspective, but in terms of money, it just doesn't work for me. If you have like a 10% chance of final tabling now, if you make the call and win it might jump up to like 15%. If you lose it'll go all the way down to like 3%. I don't have hard math or anything to back this up, but it's just instinctively true. Everyone's chances of final tabling goes up if you bust someone, but only yours goes down if you lose. When you combine that with pretty good table position that should present a lot of stealing opportunities in future hands, why bother?
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zegota
Your math may be right from a chip EV perspective, but in terms of money, it just doesn't work for me.
well yes, of course, i mentioned these numbers are NE, so from straight Cev numbers, and of course, Cev isn't the only factor here, Cev wise A2o is probably a call, i just have a hard time seeing why ICM and whatever else is such a big factor, that people here are folding hands with 10%+ more equity than straight Cev asks for.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeypoker
ok here's some nash ranges, villain can push 29.1%, 22+ A2s+ A4o+ K7s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ 98s 87s

and we should call 25.5%, 22+ A2s+ A3o+ K8s+ KTo+ QTs+ QJo JTs

because of ICM and that people don't call optimally wide anyway, villain can profitably push wider.

so i'm not at all convinced A9 is a fold yet.

EDIT: to expand on my "read" of villain, he's made some marginal (but good) shoves/reshoves, so he could be good, or a fish, but he's definitely not overly tight.
this works both ways, in that people (even decent regs) aren't shoving nearly as wide as they should, which means we can't profitably call as wide. having said that, if you've seen the guy make decent shoves then his shove is probably closer to the equilibrium range than most people's, which means A9 is definitely a +EV call, as you've demonstrated. people saying "i'd call with xyz" with no reasoning or math isn't really very helpful.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 06:15 PM
How has somebody figured?

Spoiler:
pokerstove.com
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote
06-27-2010 , 06:53 PM
I think A8+ is a call here, ya ur touching the bottom of the villian's range but your getting good price. You don't need to be ahead all the time to make the correct call.
 itm bb vs mp shove Quote

      
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