Far from the money with about 45/90 left. BB1200 with BBA. I start the hand about 24k for 20bbs. Blinds up up next hand to 1600.

I open EP (either UTG+1 or 2) with Q8ss to 2500.

2 callers behind in MP + BB calls. Four ways.

Pot ~11,800

Flop As Ks 2x

BB check
Hero check
MP check
MP2 check

Turn 4x

BB check
Hero?

I checked the flop looking to c/r get it in. Not a great plan in retrospect since this board is gonna check around a lot of times. Table is very weak, loose and passive as is common in dailies.

I think my best line is to just open jam the flop for about 1.5x pot. That will maximize fold equity and allow me to increase my stack 30-40% or whatever. Obviously don’t mind a call either.

Now as played on the turn I feel like I’m kind of in no man’s land with very little info, multi-way with no pair and a naked draw. Not a great spot.

Thoughts all around? Thanks.

The raise pre is questionable, Q8ss with 20bb is generally not going to play out very well and you'll be put in tough spots even if you hit your hand.

As played I would have taken a stab on the flop and if not the flop then the turn if it checks around, it's a great board for your range and a good chance to gain chips like you said. If you're called and you miss, depending on the card you can try ripping a bluff, but I would probably check give up and preserve my stack, and wait for another spot.

Raise pre is fail off 20bb imho, almost never going to work out how you want it to.

Checking flop is fail^2, bet like 2/3 and set up the turn rip, unless you hit flush obv.

Just my 2cents.

Q8s probably a pip too weak to open at this stage off this stack from this position.

Not crazy about going for the flop check-raise either. Four ways you're not getting many stabs and anyone who bets their Ax isn't folding to your shove. I'd just lead and go from there.

What’s the reason for cbetting so large? We can setup a pot size turn shove with like a 1/3 cbet. This is also a board that our range wants to bet a ton and gets folds with small bets.

Betting 2/3 is gonna leave us with like a 1/2 pot shove leftover. I suppose I could see an argument for that making us more money when we have value here but I’m not sure.

Which line does a villain with AT call down more often:

1/3 flop, pot turn
2/3 flop, 1/2 pot turn


Generally I think I’ll default to using the first line as PFR, given the board texture and multiway pot factor. Can also see an argument for a very tiny bet on the flop, but the stack depth becomes a bit awkward and there’s a FD and a bunch of gut shots that we can fold out more often with the 1/3 size but will float vs a 1bb size.

Also haven’t seen it mentioned but having the Qd is nice since we block the typical top of villain’s range (AQ), aside from 22. We also obv block a bunch of combo draws and flush draws. We get so many folds by betting this flop.

For me personally I guess I’m repping a big hand and I’m not going small 4 ways on a wet AF board.

Pre is fine some of the time...if the blinds are tight or if you have an image that says you're tight... probably ¼ to ⅓ of the time. As played...Now cbet ⅓ pot gii otf. Binkley and take this fuccker down!

This flop smashes our range. If we check it will look like we have 99-QQ.

There are two reasons for betting large. The first is that it is what we do (or at least what I do) when the flop smashes our range. The second is that we do not want callers.

As for sizing I would probably make it 6,000. I normally would make it about 7,500 but here the turn bet sizing would be important to keep at about 67% pot vs 1 caller. The other problem is that 7,500 is over 33% effective stack and is basically pot committed.

Jamming the flop is a possibility and a good one since we block flush draws and if a flush draw calls we are way ahead. The problem is that it is ~2x pot not 1.5x pot. So it is extremely polarizing and could be seen as a bluff. I don't mind it really but because we can't have an AXs/KXs flush draw it looks like we are doing the wrong thing with an AK/AQ/AJ hand because we wouldn't be getting called so it will look like an over bluffing bet. We would benefit from a flop call and then a turn jam if the flush doesn't get there with hands like AK/AQ. So if we bet 6,000 and the flush gets there we would check the turn to make it look like we are afraid somebody else was calling with a flush draw. And then jamming the river would look like we could have anything (a big A or 99-QQ). And if the flush doesn't get there, our hand will look a lot like AK/AQ jamming the turn at hopefully about 67% pot.

I've been thinking more about this hand. I really think going for a flop check-raise is a mistake, as I said. This flop is four ways, which means people are less likely to stab at it and less likely to bluff. If anyone bets this flop, they're likely to have a strong enough ace to call your shove, so you've played it in a way designed to get your stack in with 35% equity.

So betting out is better. But we don't need to bet out huge. Again: We're four ways with shallow stacks. Any bet looks pretty big from us, because even if we bet 1/4 pot on this flop it's very easy to take a line that puts our stack in by the river. Since the flop is AKx, there aren't a lot of opportunities for anyone else to improve-- a bet from you is going to fold out everything below Ax (and probably a lot of Kx). And if you get called, you can reevaluate and maybe fire turn again on some cards.

The ideal is you just get everyone to fold the flop, but if you don't, you can still bet turn small to try to get your river, or bigger if you pick up additional outs. But leading out lets you play the hand in a way that maximizes your fold equity while minimizing your risk.

Can you name a hand people would bet/fold on this flop as played? Because that's what you're targeting.

Maybe a weak ace in a field like this? People will stab to "find out where they are" and for protection.

I do agree with your logic in general.

It's pretty much what I just did in the "multiway with weak top pair" hand (though I don't think I would have made that mistake if there was a preflop aggressor - I was just confused by the weird limp + small blind complete dynamic)