So in a $330 opening event in Australia the following hand happened to my mate which I think is a clear raise-fold on flop but all his friends think its a flat call the donk lead and decide. So of anyone's ever played in australia, its ridiculously bad.
Blinds 100/200
Hero 9k stack
So 3 Limper's including sb. Hero with Q9 in bb checks
FLOP: QJ9cc,
Sb leads 200 into 800, HERO raises to 1k, fold, fold, Sb 3bets 2.5k. HERO calls
TURN: Jx.
Sb x, HERO goes all in for around pot.

So I think hand overall played very poorly but what is the flop play??
I think its clear raise the Donk lead and fold to 3b as there are no 3b bluffs there in a live donkament. Flatting the 200 is terrible as there are sooooo many draws out there. Also most pairs that calls behind has insane odds and equity vs you. You want value for your TWOPAIR.

The 200 lead can easily be a mid range hand or an OESD OR FD trying to get a cheap turn, but when he 3bets ur raise he is just rarely bluffing there esp after min Donk leading.

This might seem very basic but just right out my thoughts to check that I am not crazy.
TLDR: what is the flop play?

I agree that we should be targeting to get value out of 2 pair most of the time, but I also think we need to consider the situation, opponents ranges, etc.

This is about as wet as you can get on a flop and it drills a limping range of one of these mid stakes tournaments. You are well behind QJ, T8 and KT combos and you are slightly better than a coin flip (52/48) against (AcTc-Ac2c, KTs+, Kc9c-Kc7c, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, KTo+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o). Which makes up a large portion of the limping ranges.

Being this deep and this early in a tournament I would play this a little more on the cautious side and call this bet and see what develops. I also want to see what the other two limpers decide to do before I get my stack in.

I guess what it comes down to for me is I don't like getting my stack in this early when I am in a multi way hand and there are a ton of combos that make the situation a coin flip, but also a large number of combos that have me drawing almost dead.

You are never getting better to fold here and even if you get called by a hand that is worse at the moment, they still have a ton of equity moving foward in what will likely be a large pot for your tournament life. On top of that if someone jams on you over your raise, you could be folding the best hand at the moment.

Would call the 200. If for some reason we 2b the flop, as played, would call the 3b. SPR is awkward ott, but I think b/f is right

Interesting thoughts, mjght be my vash game background talking. only play mid stakes cash live/online recently but my reasoning is this. A 1/4 lead into 4 is very very rarely twopair+, only thing that does this is KT and maybe T8 as there aren't many bad cards for it. Let's say you are sitting with J9, would you really lead 1/4 pot? With sooooo many bad cards to come to counterfeit, so many one card straight cards and a FD on board. Plus the assigned sb
completion --> lead flop seems too tight, fair enough given if its one of the other Limper's but this is just sb.

Now, villain decided to go 1/4 pot then 3b you on the flop. This does NOT seem like a bluffing line because, if you are bluffing why 1/4 pot the flop with no equity. So his leading range has a heap of mid strength hands in it or random T that complete or flush draw trying for cheap free card or the nuts trapping. Now he 3bets, he eliminates all the random Tx, Qx and FD because they are way more likely to just call to continue so we would very very very rarely be folding the best hand here. (People severely underbluff as it is). Its live poker, lots of loose passives, he will probably call with random Tx and not folding a flush draw. Hence my reason to raise for value, fold to 3bet. Now you can play turn perfectly IP.

So now to flat calling the 1/4 pot bet with two to act behind.I think the leading range given above is way way way too tight, pretty much the nuts/ nuts draw. What if he leads with a random T6s, random Q5s. 75ss, you are giving him free equity. Now let's say you call, a random T behind you calls and like J8o or something. Which wouldve folded to a flop raise and you just lose lots of equity.

Yes I am all for not going broke on a limp pot. But raise folding isn't going broke. Critiques on my thought process?

Your reasoning makes sense. R/F is probably a profitable play in the long run.
The only reason why I would considering peeling here are the great implied odds. Villain gives you roughly 1-3, and you can be assured that in this type of tournament (especially being a re-entry format), Villain is willing to stack off against you. So it costs you 1500 to potentially win another 6.5 k. If you don't fill up, you still have more than 30 BB. And except for exactly QJ (and maybe 99 which you block), villain should never have you dominated here, as QQ,JJ raise pre.

Only problem is that you may not realise your full equity, as any capable villain will barrel turn, which will force you to fold. But in these types of tournaments villains are not always capable (as in this case when he checks a J, which is a pretty much a brick for the straight)

Going all in when your hand deteriorates is just LOL, you can tell your mate that...but he probably knows (hopefully)

And yes, never flatting flop here, unless I am folding every club, K, A, T,8,J to a bet.

Bet/fold something other than all in ott. You are turning it into a bluff, but it's a great card for your range and a horrible card for SB.

Everything else is ok. SB flopped a straight it seems.

Hey fin, yeah I did tell.him turn was dreadful. And your last point is spot on, seems so silly to me that everyone is screaming nuts or nuts draw! When he literally led for 1bb. One single bb.

Also I don't think we have the right odds to hit our 4 house outs. Given its Australia too I believe they will not be balanced, donkint 1bb then suddenly 3betting with a combo draw or something, when a loose passive population would more likely just call our raise

Yeah I think turn is pretty bad. Forgot some additional.information which may sway the decision. Given this is a repecharge event in a series of Sydney tournaments going on at the moment and this one is the lowest buyin ans Day1a of 4 flights. I think given the SPR of less than one and being the 3rd level of blinds only of the day even though we rep more FH with the J I don't think we fold out a straight.


I feel flop is a fold to 3b as played. I don't think any bluff takes the flop line of leading 1/4 pot (1bb) then suddenly 3betting to a size (where every raise-bluff I have would have odds to call)

Oh sry, missed the psb Ai in OP
Well turning anything into a bluff in Australia is doomed, so check behind

The flop is difficult. Raise folding is rarely if ever the best solution in poker, but against a trivially small lead it's more like a bet/fold. Also some important equity denial considerations with other players in the pot. I don't mind it.

Does Hero hold Qc?

That second line is so so true. Against that super small lead, its basically a check by him, and then we bet pot, pretty much like you put it.

I didn't ask about the Qc, but we would block alot more opponent bluffs with that card