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Old 10-30-2011, 03:33 PM   #26
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

Idk man, maybe this is trivial fold. I think vills perspective 77 is easy ship for him vs this donk. Doesn't look like others in this thread agree, so likely population doesn't either, which leads me to folding.
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Old 10-30-2011, 09:19 PM   #27
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

Strong smell of ak there. If u call pre u cant fold tens to that board. Shoving pre looks pretty optimistic this early. Calling flop > folding pre > folding flop. If he has aces or kings it is pretty much under represtented as he played. jj, qq, ak pretty look possible though.
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:49 AM   #28
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

^rly? If you were in his position, would you have shoved the flop?

to everyone else:
Feel free to answer the same question, I'm really intrested, because I would almost never shove that flop with AK 3handed.
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:50 PM   #29
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

I think shoving flop with AK is a big mistake.
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:24 PM   #30
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

I dont mind going for the set when calling his 3bet. As played, you missed your set, and you folded,,,good play. Fwiw, I think his flop push is JJ or QQ looking to protect his hand against two players.

Last edited by jaxtraw; 10-31-2011 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:01 PM   #31
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

Why does everyone have ak/jj as the bottom of villains 3 bet range in this spot? Preflop given what we know about villain (3 bets 13% btn) and what villain knows about OP (wide opens, doesnt flat 3bets much if i remember) plus the smallish opensize he is a lot wider than this.

How would he play his random **** hands on the flop, nevermind ak? Looks like the perfect flop for him to push and win a big pot, bb is a fish who likely has overs only but prob also has to fold mid pairs with player to act behind, OP he knows is solid and only shows up with AA or a set here.

I'm leaning more towards calling the shove.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:29 PM   #32
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

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Originally Posted by monkeyheaven View Post
Why does everyone have ak/jj as the bottom of villains 3 bet range in this spot? Preflop given what we know about villain (3 bets 13% btn) and what villain knows about OP (wide opens, doesnt flat 3bets much if i remember) plus the smallish opensize he is a lot wider than this.
Because OP is raising from utg, maybe villain has 99+, but most a higher probability he has OP beat. OP is not in a desperate situation here, and has plenty of chips so does not need to make a hero call. Hero fold>>>>Hero call.
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:14 PM   #33
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

When the BB cold calls a 3bet pot it is always a little scary. I think TT is to strong to fold in this spot and alone the set mining odds makes this a call for me.

Preflop I see two lines:
a) call the 3bet - for set mining or overpair to the board
b) 4bet squeeze to 725 (and call any shove) and shove any flop 600.

With the stats of the btn: LAG and 3betting a lot in possition - hero is ahead of his range. The stacks are good for 3betting on the btn and he might have a range like: 66+, A5s+,ATo+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s. (13%)

TT is 58/42 favorite preflop.

The 963 rainbow is pretty dry so BTN should not worry about draws. So why shove? Well, to balance he needs to shove some of his overpairs/trips as well as OCs or draws - but even many good regs do not balance in these spots. He might just bet half pot with AA;KK and trips to induce a CR from 88,77,87,A9, AK

If BTN shoves and bb calls...I would fold my overpair.
But when bb fols...I have very good odds to call: 1150 to win 850+1150 (2000).

So I call and guess most time I am ahead of his range...and I will sometimes run into QQ,JJ,66. - but overall a profitable call due the fact that the btn is 3betting light
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:38 PM   #34
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxtraw View Post
Because OP is raising from utg
It's 5 handed man! This is such an easy shove pre vs the 3b% as monkeyHEAVEN states.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:37 PM   #35
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

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It's 5 handed man! This is such an easy shove pre vs the 3b% as monkeyHEAVEN states.
Filtered to the 25-50 level, and for non-shoving 3bets that is 20% of villains stack, it will be way less. He is not going to be much lighter than 99, and Op can certainly find a much better spot than making a 4bet with 1010 @25bb . DOnt know what game or level you play, but easy shove preflop is so far from correct.
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Old 11-01-2011, 12:44 AM   #36
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

Well as long as we are taking this same pre flop line with 66-99 I think it's fine to do it with TT. There's really no difference between any mid/low pair and TT if we flat in this spot, so set mining with TT means we are set mining with 66. As long as that's the case, I think folding the flop is ok. I guess it becomes closer if we have QQ, but TT is right on the edge. Since I assume we are going to 4bet QQ+ like all the time we essentially turn our hand face up as a set mine when we don't 4b pre, which means he's making a massive profit shipping ATC. Maybe the fact that it's 3 ways will deter him enough from shipping this board with ATC though. It's a really tricky spot. I don't mind our line as long as TT isn't the top of our range. If it is, we really need to reconsider our pre flop play.

All of this is moot if we get a very strong read on villain's range obviously. From what we've been told, though we don't really have that.
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Old 11-01-2011, 01:41 AM   #37
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

Related question - I assume the answer is "yes," but are those HUD/hand grabber things okay now under Bodog's T&C? Stats would be realllyyyyy nice to have at all times.
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Old 11-01-2011, 02:49 AM   #38
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

pre i'd jambo in my lambo
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Old 11-01-2011, 02:56 AM   #39
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps View Post
Related question - I assume the answer is "yes," but are those HUD/hand grabber things okay now under Bodog's T&C? Stats would be realllyyyyy nice to have at all times.
I think so, I don't use mine for DON's, and I havn't played cash in a couple weeks. It was fine in October though. Everyone used them in 6max cash at 100NL+.
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:39 AM   #40
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxtraw View Post
Filtered to the 25-50 level, and for non-shoving 3bets that is 20% of villains stack, it will be way less. He is not going to be much lighter than 99, and Op can certainly find a much better spot than making a 4bet with 1010 @25bb . DOnt know what game or level you play, but easy shove preflop is so far from correct.
Nothing major, only about a million hands of continuous HUD stat study and trust me, he can be ALOT wider than 99. The laggiest reg I have in my database 3-bets all day long and his button % is 7%. So, easy shove pre is very correct.
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:55 AM   #41
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

penfold whats ur stars nick?

dont think its an easy fist pump shove, but id shove pre
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:00 AM   #42
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Re: $235 6max, TT 3way

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Originally Posted by penfold View Post
Nothing major, only about a million hands of continuous HUD stat study and trust me, he can be ALOT wider than 99. The laggiest reg I have in my database 3-bets all day long and his button % is 7%. So, easy shove pre is very correct.
I didnt mean anything by questioning your level of play. Just in my playing experience, the higher the buyin level, the less chance of villain showing up here with a pair of 7's or AQ. A non push 3bet against an utg raise, at the $235, with a non-big stack, is usually a spot where villain has us beat. In spite of what HUD stats say.
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