Hey all, have a hand from today I wonder if needs to be played differently. I have 12.6k maybe? At 800 bb level and avg is maybe 35k? 8 handed, goes two limps- one guy is new to table and looks kinda reccy and to my right guy is older and limp (another rec player). I have AQdd from maybe cutoff and think what to do. I elect to make it 4.5k making it a third of my stack. First guy folds and to my right he calls. Flop 568 and he quickly checks. I rip. He folds.

Do I need to just rip pre here? I was just going to call all ins pre obv and thought making it 1/3rd stack and psb on flops works. Is that really bad? I know we wanna see all 5 and gives guy with any pp to call post bc that flop is bad. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if villain folded a lower pp to the board but idk prolly just 2 high cards. Is my play ever ok or nah?

I’ll go one more hand. 18k at 400 level and cutoff is a Rec (we didn’t know but he was a blaster- played tourny for 4 bullets and after hand we saw him punt badly). I have k5cc from button. He opens cu to 1500, I make it 6.5k. He calls. Flop is red Q72 and I cbet 1/4th pot and he quickly raises and I fold. Are you ok with 3 betting this hand bc he should be light from cu. I feel we can size down on flop and he will play face up. He flashed a Q. He may have had 25-30k at start of hand. Do you hate this play button Vs cu. I feel it might be bad against a rec player bc they prolly aren’t opening wide enough. I thought it was a good spot to pick up blinds but if he folds pre + we can cbet and hope he folds. I would say it’s a high variance play and maybe spewy in a tourny we don’t need to get crazy in bc spots can be found. Thanks for thoughts.

Sizing on hand- I think he prolly rarily folds making it more than 3x also but just thought k5cc was too good to not turn into a 3! Fold (prolly not ideal due to sizing and fact it was a rec player).

You have 15.66 bb's with AQdd from cutoff against two limps? That's an easy shove there. Why raise to 4,500?
The stack sizes of the other two would be helpful, but I mean...just under 16 bb's from cutoff facing two limps is an easy shove with AQdd.

As played, you're letting villain get away from hands you dominate on this flop. You're only folding out worse (except 22-44, which would be the only better hands you can fold out, and 44 may even call your flop all-in) and getting called by better on this flop. If you shove pre you might get looked up by ATo-AJo, KJs+, A9s-AJs, KQo.

Second hand...cutoff opens to 3.75 bb's and you...3! with K5cc to 16.25 bb's? And you were the effective stack with 45 bb's to start?

Why are you 3! K5cc for over 1/3 of your stack against a "rec player"? Rec players don't like to open raise/fold all that much. They came to play hands.

So now he calls, pot is like 35 bb's and you have like 28.75 bb's behind? I mean, you don't really have much maneuverability postflop with just under 1 SPR.

Just fold preflop. You have a horrible hand and I don't know why you think it's a justified play. You had 45 bb's. No need to even get involved in this hand whatsoever.

You said he's a recreational player. Then you said "he should be light from the cu". Based on...what exactly? You gave no examples of him opening wide/lite from late position.

If anything, I'd think a recreational player is opening raising tighter from the cutoff vs an MTT pro/regular/online player.

H1- I had an old coach that would discuss stop and gos with AK where you would put 1/3 or more if your stack in pre and shove all flops for a psb. It’s not ideal but I felt in the instance it is ok and may produce more chips than a shove pre. I may be wrong and honestly would have said it’s a blunder if villian calls with 44 or a mid pair lower than the board. I just feel villian will fold to 16bb with say 44-77 most likely so putting it in as a psb flop- if he has 88 and the flop is K93, they prolly fold.

H2- this spot is obv is a little spewy but a spot I think we can take sometimes to see if villian finds fold preflop or on flop cbet. I do think as I stated- his sizing pre + fact he was recreational makes it tougher to justify the play. Idk I like to go over 3x the open oop bc we should with all of our range even if it’s AA oop. Maybe we can exploit go smaller a tad with AA or KK but I’ve been coached- normally wanna go 3.5x the open minimum oop bc we don’t want to give villians a good price against our whole range (bluff and the nutty top end). I do think this hand is less a blunder than h1. I think it’s s spot we should take at a freq though bc we increase our stack when villian folds or finds fold on flop which I think happens often enough- it’s a decent play against someone that isn’t super competent. Like if we bet 1/4th pot and they fold somewhat often- I think this play is gold. I think most live players are going to play flop so so face up and fold when they don’t hit a flop- I didn’t 3! At all in this tourny bc deck was cold so my image was prolly fairly tight and snuggy. I’m a young kid with 2 wsop circuit rings and a flashy luxury watch so maybe folks look at me like I’m super aggro and hyper competent but idk?

Btw hand 2- I made it 5500. My bad for saying 6500. It might be a meh play against player type but still think it’s a high variance aggro play that is perfectly fine if we play to win and want all the chips. I think it could be yielding chips long run if opponent isn’t playing well post and overfolding to 3! (Clearly a rec might not be folding enough pre)

H1 I just shove pre-flop. No need to raise the risk of getting eliminated. Yes you will win more chips some of the time but you will also get eliminated much more of the time. The other reason is that if AJ could be in a calling range of the all in bet so it maximizes the return on flops like we see here.

H2 If I was going to 3-bet raise pre-flop (which I would never do with K5s) it would always be to 4500 (or 3x). We want to play in position with hands that dominate CO opening bets and will win significant % of the time. Also CO will fold his bad hands regardless of our sizing as long as it is 3x or more. The problem with making it more than 3x is that when CO 4 bets we just lose more.

The reason to make A5s a 3-bet option vs K5s pre-flop is that it blocks Ax hands which gives us a much better chance of winning the had if neither of us hits and it also means that our cbet on the flop will succeed a lot more (if CO doesn't have an A they will be much more likely to fold if they miss the flop). Also, outside chance of gutters and straights.

Hand 2- you gotta go over 3x with your whole range. It’s too cheap to let someone play post in position against you. I make it 3.5-4.5x here depending on stack depths. I would say maybe can exploit go smaller with KK or AA. Say we both have 30-40bb. Cu opens to 2.2bb- I’m fine making it 5.5-7k going against my rule to exploit. Will mix this freq up with going normal 3.5-4x though. If you are going to go 3.5x with your trash fold to 4 bet hands/ you gotta throw some top value in there to not be so obvious- I don’t think live folks for the most part can decipher bet sizes- only the true ogs that actually make run and run as you can see from their Hendon mob will understand sizing differences.

Btw I’m close to 100% 3 bet with A5cc in that spot. I would say K5cc is a hand we can say it’s ok to fold or call. I tend to favor more aggressive lines where we can see a flop without a bb and win post with nothing when we cbet or fire 2 streets. I wouldn’t 3 these hands against certain player types- think your OMC who clearly isn’t raising light enough from cutoff. I will say 3 betting when villian opened fairly large was probably a bad move bc I think he had a hand he didn’t want to fold.


Side note- saw some omc guy open to like 5-6x with AK multiple times. I lold in my head- I wanted to be like dawg why are you scared to play AK. Just open to a normal size. It irritates the hell out of me when folks will raise large with small pps or AK/AQ. It seems so not optimal. Just open same sizing with all of your opening range. If we are 40bb deep, open to 2.2x with all of your raise range. Don’t very sizes unless some odd icm situation exists or someone is over calling a blind and we want to exploit. I feel people also raise larger late to try and not get bb to come along. We want to play pots against a bb with a weak wide range who is going to x fold in a lot of spots when they don’t hit. I know bb defend spots can be tough to play against bc they have such a wide range but it’s like the ideal spot late in a tournament to acquire chips in a more low variance style.

Were you the SB or BB? If you are the BTN you are in position post flop. I will always 3-bet in position to 3x (plus 1x for each in-between caller). I do not want to give away hand strength based on my bet sizing.

In the SB or BB I would not raise with K5s but its a definite call in the BB against normal raise sizing (which it turns out is not this case...)

I think your point is a good one (I missed it earlier). He is raising close to 4x which is often JJ and sometimes TT/AK. I would probably just call with A5s in the BB because of that (rather than play an extremely bloated pot OOP).

I probably call with K5s in the BB to a close to 4x open but I might not because we have basically only a 33% chance to win and we are paying close to break even and we will be OOP. I guess it would depend on if how well I knew the other player and if I thought I had an edge postflop.

Hand 1 I'd just rip off your stack size. There's about 30% of your current stack in the middle already and I'm not really worried about better hands (you may get looked up by a small pocket pair if one of the limpers has that, but that's still probably not happening often).

Hand 2 I think I just fold to that raise size pre, but I might call if I think CO is bad. Sometimes 3-bet against a more standard raise size, but that's such a big raise size. If I did 3-bet this spot, I would go smaller, not bigger-- the pot is already going to be pretty big, and I'm more concerned about leveraging my position and taking control of the betting lead, since I wouldn't expect a fold after that size open. 4-5k would suffice.

Generally, though, I think a rec's raise size being unusually large is a tip to hand strength, and I don't think it's profitable to try to blast recreational players off good hands.

Hand 1: Fine. I sometimes play it like this. I think the problem with just ripping 15BB (which is also fine) is that even bad players will play their hand some what correctly. Some players will call A4s for 1/3 of your stack will fold to a shove preflop. Or same with JT/KT/etc.

Hand 2: Fine to 3 bet this once in a blue moon. I don't think you need to raise so large. Also, I wouldn't do it with this stack size and not vs the opening raise size that the villain picked. I think making 4.5K is going to have the same result. Because with your 3 bet size, you have to call a shove. If you have players that are opening so large, you just have to be patient and wait for a better hand to 3 bet.

Hand #1: I think if we were in more of an ICM-heavy situation (like a bubble or final table) where there was incentive to get other stacks to collide, I'd like the non all-in bet more. In those cases, we can absolutely raise intending to call off but maybe fold if the action gets crazy behind us. But without ICM, there's no need to get fancy. Just rip.

Hand #2: K5s is fine as a 3-bet in GTO-land, but not against a rec raising nearly 4x. I would be picking stuff that maybe gets the bottom of his likely opening range to fold, like maybe K9s. I may just straight fold K5 here. I'm also going to have a lower 3-bet non-all in frequency off of 40BB because when he makes it 4x, I'm sure we start doing a little bit of jamming over the open.