This is one of my first few games at the $20s so I don't have any reads but the two opponents have decent sharkscope numbers

I'm guessing that this is the level where people start playing ICM more thoroughly (and obv pwning it more)

at the lower BI's most people ignore it, but even after 20 games at this level, I've noticed more ICMing going on and more ICM leveling too

Blinds 150/300

Hero (900)
SB (150) All in
BB (4950)

Dealt to hero: Q 8

Hero calls?, BB checks

flop 2 4 4

BB bets 300, Hero?

i would have folded preflop. its super weak that the BB didnt just take your limp away from you. I guess its nice you at least got to see the flop, but now you have no reason to stay in this hand any longer.

Would've been an instamuck prf for me. Every halfway thinking BB would just ship any2 vs your limp.

Wow you are posting all the really good ones tonight.

Of course ICM formula says fold. And when you limped BB should have shoved on you.

But what you describe here with your action and BB action is something I see hundreds of times every day playing DoN's (different I know) - I would call this the DoN strategy and is counter-ICM

You and the BB made the correct play from a "who is busting next" POV - you have a singular moment where your common interests converge. SB probablity to win that hand is now severely reduced. Roughly calculating any random hand SB has HU vs any random hand BB holds is too close to a flip. By Hero entering the pot in a manner that encourages BB to cooperate at no cost/risk and see a flop, the two larger stacks have reduced SB equity to probably no more than 37% and most likely closer to 30%.

Eliminating SB here serves both BB and Hero, as Hero wants to cash and BB wants to eliminate the tactical annoyance that the SB creates for him and get on with crushing Hero HU and taking first place.

Of course it is a -EV play since you throw 300 chips (1/3 stack!) into a pot and you would almost surely have to fold if raised by BB. As played you fold on flop anyway, hopefully due to BB hitting that flop. The meta here is the interesting part, will BB try to assert his table dominance by shoving (or just playing ICM exactly which would suggest push) or will he decide to "make a deal" for the SB chips and quick elimination, effectively playing it like some FT chop agreement between players.

So when is a -EV play actually correct? In DoN's this is done frequently, since the prize pool is effectively chopped already.

i like the limp pre!

Dont fold post imo. Im getting my last chips in somehow.

I don't share your opinion on that one. The BB should be more interested in shoving than "making a deal". Best case: he busts the shorty and he's HU against a guy who's 2BB short - excellent.
Worst case: SB wins and doubles, resulting in keeping the bubble alive, which isn't VERY bad, considering the shortstacks are 1BB and 2BB short.
(one can make another case for when BU decides to call after limping, although I consider this one being pretty unlikely)

On the other hand if "making a deal" you're giving BU the chance of more than doubling up if he hits and getting back in the game. I just don't get your point of trying to eliminate a guy who's already 0.5BB(!) short by giving the midstack the chance of growing a stack.
I don't really care if the shorty doubles up to 1BB. That way we would preserve our FE against the midstack.


Why would you try to get all-in here? I seriously don't get it. Especially on the flop.

SB is already all in....

yeah, so? I don't see the point which makes it worth risking to bubble here.
Maybe I'm too closed-minded, but it just makes no sense to me. I hope you can give me/us some insight into your thoughts.

U know how this should go before we lose on the bubble here right? And we still have a backdoorflush and prob two overs to hit in worst case.... Its not like we need to win here sir....

Limp seems like the worst option preflop. Fold pre, fold flop.

Care to explain?

To clarify, I'm not saying it is the best play. I'm saying from a counter-ICM standpoint, which sometimes can be the best play in DoN's, it is a good play. In this regular SnG I would not expect that BB to check his option so I would fold pre. Once he did check, the play is similar to a DoN and takes the approach of "who is most likely to bust next".

I was just looking at this from some other angles since OP stated there may be some leveling or other meta in play. From BB standpoint, he probably has more to gain by playing this standard and raising there, as you say he has little to lose either way since he is in complete control of this scenario. I wonder if the BB play was weak or something else. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit there, but he played this like it was a chopped prize pool which seems interesting if we assume he is a competent player.

I do see some benefit for the BB as played, once hero limped in he has a chance to get hero to make a mistake on the flop and potentially take both shorties out and win this now. And as I stated in my first post there is larger probability that SB will bust on this hand instead of prolonging the bubble further. It may not be a big concern for BB but it is a slight advantage I think. So I can see why BB plays it this way, don't believe it is just a weak play. Is it possible the BB is a DoN reg?

So anyway, in a reg SnG it's unlikely the BB checks his option so hero has nothing to gain by limping and should fold preflop.

my rationale for folding pf would be the stack sizes.

if we fold pf and shorty doubles up he still only has 1bb, and we have 3bb. if we limp and he triples up then he has 3bb and we're with 2bb, and the bb about to hit us.

Good point

Id only consider limping if I knew that BB will never pwn me wide. Otherwise I think its a really easy fold preflop.

Yeah fold seems Best actually. Dont read My above posts lolol

yeah good point i didn't think about that...i was thinking the BB would cooperate and i reduce the SB's chance of surviving by 20%

think ur right tho

on the other hand...results was I folded the flop, BB had 73o, SB had 69o and held...but i think fold pre is best

Are there antes here? Surely a 0.5bb stack can only triple up to 1.5bb, and antes shouldn't equal 1.5bb 3-handed.

I assumed the chip counts were before play, but even if the ante was already posted when the chip counts were recorded here, the antes at those blinds are probably 15 so shorty at best will have 1.65bb not 3bb

fold>shove>limp preflop. fold vs shove is close, read dependent on how often you think the guy folds. shove seems pretty clearly better than limp to me since sb can't fold.

no there are never antes in super turble's...i think i made two mistakes in this hand...once i played i shouldn't have folded post, but i shouldn't have played at all imo