Yay STTs

Don't have the HH, but I'll try to re-create it as pretty as possible. Definitely going to be some errors in exact bet amounts, but that doesn't matter too much.

75/150, 6-handed

SB (Reg): ~2200
BB (Me): ~2100

Reads on Villain
- Reg, have some history with him but not many 'crazy' hands between us
- Has been coached to play "non-standard"

Folded to SB, who limps.



I have 85 and raise to 300. Villain calls.



Flop is JJ4 Villain checks, I check.
Turn 6. Villain bets 222, I raise to 450



Villain raises to 665.



Now what? Anyone do anything other than snap fold?

bet the flop fold the turn it's cheaper and simpler, also allows you to not get sucked into an fps vortex...

275 flop

Fps vortex is fun

bet/ bet/ decide pretty easily

Just fold pre.

YOU FOLD PRE

I wanted to post the Kobe stare gif but photobucket says it's too big to upload. Beat.

lol, that should become the new standard format for posting hands.

Id just check pre and raise his flopstab or call and raise/bet turn if I want to get fanzy,

I assume you're checking here as you assume that makes your line look stronger? (as the range you get value from is narrow otf). Tough spot. Your line seems kind of strong. i.e I don't think you would check flop with an ace then raise the turn? So from villain's perspective he should be trying to bluff you off a strong range which makes me think he is most likely v-betting a strong range.

his line does not look strong, its not balanced, its nothing, its a grandma that wants to bluff but too afraid to put in two bets

I think the line is strong because I would check often with strong hands when villain's perceived range is weak for value. I also think raising the turn looks stronger as it takes pot controlling ace highs out of our range. That would be my thought process in a vacuum without reads.

How unorthodox does he play?

I highly doubt that he is nutted in this spot. I'm assuming JJ 66 and 44 would have went all in preflop. Are J6ss and J4ss a part of his range here? They could be I guess as your raise size doesn't really push out a whole lot of hands that limped from the SB.

I'd assume now your best option is to call given the odds. He has polarized his range and I think once you call the turn he will assume you are calling the river and will probably slow up on his bluffs. You can probably shove all rivers if he checks to you and call anytime he bets and you make hit a 7.

This is quite speculative though. Don't like your raise size from the BB and I also agree that betting flop/betting the turn is the best line to take the majority of the time.

whats this

Good post.
I think call>fold>>>>>>shove given odds, but the raise preflop from the bb looks super weak, if you get to showdown you're going to get limp/jammed on in future , it doesn't serve well as a bluff or a valuebet (he's going to call always but that doesn't necessarily plant the seed of "oh so I have to be strong riight " in his brain)

It's a common spot preflop and if you've got the reed just cram it in, people adjust really badly to getting shoved on, nobody traps with these stack sizes anymore, would help if you included his sb steal %

Lastly, think about the hand from his perspective on the turn...and how much you want him to fold. You raised the turn to compound your flop check mistake because you are expecting another barrell if you call the turn.....if you somehow check the flop, call the turn and keep the story at least consistent.

Agreed

Doubtful. I think 99% of regs, even unorthodox ones, aren't going to flat Jx here with these stack sizes. Limp reshove? Definitely more possible.


Disagree with most of this actually. What size do you think looks 'strong?' 2.5x? 3x? Jam? I'm basically never jamming here vs a reg.

And I'm utterly shocked he limp called here, haven't seen a winning reg do that in...almost ever.

I could def have Jx/44/66/JJ; however, if it's a nuts-or-nothing line, villain can (very profitably) click back the turn with air.

LOL @ afraid to put in two bets, as if I'm not mashing river if villain flats turn.

Btw Entim, want to clarify that when I said "disagree with most of this" I meant of the part I quoted.

Acknowledging the fact my line can look bluffy, call > raise/shove vs his 3 bet on the turn?

Depends on how much air is in his range and how he will play it on the river. Since there are no flush draws and very few straight combos on this board most regs are going to assume you are calling down the river once you call on the turn. Hence they should slow up with their air on the river.

He isn't going to hero fold something he was trying to induce with for value on the turn so there is no real point in you jamming the turn. The only way jamming the turn becomes better than call is if you think that there is alot of air in his range and he will always be jamming it on the river.

I dont like your raise preflop. I prefer to either flat and play in position or if I raise I am going to make it enough where he is not going to be priced into call with a hand that plays well post flop, like 422.

As played I would bet the flop once it is checked to me about 200, when he calls I am done with the hand.

As played, as played, I think your turn raise looks suspect. Villain should think "if you had a jack why would you raise that turn opposed to getting another street of value, and you would probably flat a 4 or 6". I fold to his r/r figuring I have a better chance with a 10bb stack and future hands.

We're BB and he limped...

So you're saying check? Tbh since I've never seen a reg limp/call here I figured the sizing wasn't super important, if anything, the smaller the raise the better (maximizing risk/reward) if he does shove, it costs me less.

Obviously knowing he has capable of flatting changes that.

315 pre is infinitely better than 300 and will get a ton more folds imo

Given that he Has been coached to play "non-standard", I expect he's folding to the minraise preflop exactly 0% of the time. He might limp reraise some, but he's always at least calling.

I'd either check or raise to 425/450 pre. As played, I like cneuy3's advice.

I wonder if you are over thinking the "coached to play non-standard" part of your read. Unless he's been getting out of line I would give him the benefit. I find most of the time a cigar is just a cigar in a stt, even with a good reg.

Regarding flatting the turn, I really dont like it because what do you do if you hit a 5 or an 8 and he pushes? And you also run the risk of hitting a 7 and he c/f. You made a play and it didnt work, you will find a better spot with a still playable stack.