Hey all, just finished up a final table in a $1100 wsop event earlier today. Kinda played like a clown but have a huge spot I want to ask about.

Hand- ok so I just have battled back to 2mill in chips. Leader has maybe 2.8, other two have prolly 1.4 and 1.6 im guessing. First is 54k, 2-33, 3- 23 4-17

Ok so I open cu to 80k at 40k level with aggro young punk image. Button is chip leader and 3! To 200k. He has been 3! Me a lot but I’m under impression not light and more value but idk. I elect to 4! To 650k. He tank calls. Flop 559. I rip for psb and he tank calls 10-10. We don’t get help and finish 4th for prolly icm suicide. Any thoughts on how we should react to 3! Pre? I think I have slight skill edge over 2 and huge over older guy who is just being hit by deck and raising flops for goofy amounts when I cbet small with pure bluffs against his bb defends.


Should we flat 3! Or just rip 35-40bb pre?



Btw final table was a roller coaster. I go I. 4/9- make a spewy play sb vs bb Vs a kid that thinks in a lag tard based on what I’ve said and played hands against him. I dump 300k to him early in spot I shouldn’t. I rip 49dd sb Vs bb against a 15bb stack I think is goin got overfold and he has A-10o and we somehow spike. A 9 on flop to win a 30bb pot and get a pay jump. Very stupid on my part to take this line.

I go down to 600k 4 handed. Sb rips 74hh against me and I snap K8o and hold! Get back to 2mill stack where I’m like average in chips or above. Then Ak hand happens. Idk maybe I should cbet small and bomb turn. Idk. I felt my play was ok- I felt player would fold a lot of Jxx and Qxx boards if I rip but we didn’t get that. Maybe just bomb pre or flat the 3! super underrepped and maintain my chip stack and perceived edge shorthanded.

i felt bombing AKo pre would make my hand fairly obvious as I’m not bombing QQ KK AA. I felt I let my chance at a 3rd circuit ring go here- played bad and got lucky in spots as stated above. 4 handed I felt really nervous and folding a lot due to not wanting to spew chips and give myself a shot to jump pay bumps if any big coolers occurred. I went kinda card dead also so didn’t have many spots.

Ended up flatting a 3! With JQss and turn a straight on a 3-10-9-k-k runout where I checked turn and raised river to an all in and got a fold. Also got a great hero call after I bombed river with 35 on a 46Q2A runout. Guy called me with 2nd pair after I played straight super slow- called his turn bet and raised all in on river. Not sure Hand is exact cards but I had the lower straight possibility and he calls me with 2nd pair after going into tank haha!

What was your hand?

AKo.

I open to 80k from cu, button makes it 200k, I make it 650k, he tank calls. Flop 559, I shove for just under pot and he tank calls w/ 10-10

Congratulations on your deep run. Your post is very confusing but if your question is how to get the CL to lay down 1010 after you showed 49 and k8o, I think the answer is you can't.

Yea sorry I wrote it last night on phone. Hmm yea I guess.

Idk K8o from bb, calling a sb shove of 15bb effective seems super standard. 49jamming 15 effective sb vs bb isn’t but yea idk. I thought bb would overfold a lot of Kx and Qx hands or J10 honestly so I thought good spot to pick up 2 bb and I have a suited hand if called lol.

I guess more so my question is- should I just flat AKo 200k 3! And play lower variance here? I would guess yes + the hand is underepped. Asked an old poker coach who isn’t in game now, he said stuff 30-40bb here comfortably. He didn’t like the 4! Bc I have to call off to shove or 5! But I was planning on doing that.

No question icm suicide but going for the W. Think I win tourny at higher % than chips dictate if I win that pot- aka I would have had 52% of chips in play and assume I win 55-60% of time just dwindling the lower stacks down due to bubble implications.

Well, you certainly overplayed the hand, especially on the flop against the only player that could take you out, in a spot with very little fold equity. So was it icm suicide when in 2nd place, four handed? Absolutely.

Your chips were worth 32,000 when you went out.

Although, with the chip distribution, everyone had pretty healthy stacks. The low stack was worth 28,000.

The problem with the jam isn't that it didn't work, its that if it does work (and chip leader folds) you just become the chip leader by a small amount (it doesn't make you win the tournament). So given the risk its just not worth doing because the gain isn't enough. If you had say QQ then its worth it because you can double up and become the massive Chip Leader and you know you aren't up against AA/KK. Having JJ is tougher because BTN can have QQ (along with TT/AK/AQs) and is afraid you have AK and in position wants to minimize the loss (as he did with TT). I would still jam with JJ though I likely wouldn't have 4-bet preflop...

In general at a final table I don't play big pots against the big stack when I am in 2nd place unless I know I am ahead. So I would have called the pre-flop 3-bet and folded to the flop c-bet. That way you stay in 2nd place with an edge over the other players.

Anyway, nice finish. Just glad you aren't here in Vegas...

Jk, did you look at the icm value of your chips before the hand was played?

No but I would assume it’s 1/4 pool of cash left + a little for being slightly above average. How would you folks play hand?

I assume flat 200k and call cbet and fold to turn stuff or bet. I feel a maybe a jam pre is ok also Vs how I played it.

I don't know how you shove 1.8 over the 200k raise but I would feel better about that move if he calls over the psb with 6 outs on flop.

With 50bbs and second in chips, you had a ton of play left and no need to get overly aggressive vs the CL.

Still, it's an awesome deep run and a nice cash.

I think 4-bet less than all-in is the worst option. Yeah, you're probably never 4-bet shoving QQ+ (maybe QQ), but you can still put the decision back on him as to whether he wants to call off over 70% of his remaining stack to flip. I mean, you're not shoving big pairs on that flop either, so it's not like your line avoided turning your hand face-up. (Especially since his continuing range to your 4-bet is basically all pairs, as I imagine AK rips and any worse unpaired hand probably folds - assuming he's ever 3-betting worse unpaired hands and not flatting them.)

In theory a smaller 4-bet might induce a 5-bet shove from some of his bluff range, but you don't really want to be setting yourself up to get all-in and called either at this point. And you don't think he's 3-betting you light, so there shouldn't be many of those. I'd want to maximize my fold equity rather than bloat a pot OOP without much clarity as to where I stand and if I can move him off his hand postflop.

If you want to play more conservatively, then flat the 3-bet and proceed accordingly.

Thanks jjou, I feel like I messed up and let a good opportunity go. I do agree with you we were very deep. I think looking back- flat is best play as it’s lower variance, we can call one cbet on flop and release and still have a solid chance. I felt my aggression level would have helped 4 handed if deck hit me a little late. Prolly pure spew and a total icm punt based on my play- I still think villain will fold Jxx and Qxx flops- i prolly exploit bet small on Axx and Kxx flops for 2 streets and shove river.

If a poker player says they would never play Ako as aggressively as you did, they are lying. Everybody has done this, thinking there is no way the op can call.

So to segue to the deal making thread for a second, I think the pays would have been 35, 32, 29, 28 using icm model. Do you see any value in looking at the icm, proposing a deal and taking 32 (1k less than 2nd) before playing this hand? Do you think the other players would have considered it?

Not an ICM expert so let me offer another perspective.

As a nit I get massive fold equity when 4 betting AK (or anything else really). So I will 4 bet it almost always.

To me, this would mean that with an aggro young punk image, 4 betting it may be less good. I like calling the 3 bet and only blasting off if we hit an A or K. That way we might not be believed and get called very light.

Omg I prolly would have chopped 4 ways icm- the event was still deep and I felt there was only one soft spot at table who was an older guy that seemed to be a little wonky- he was raising my tiny cbets to semi big amounts with what I assume were good hands: this was type of player that was playing super straight up. He would just toss chips in pot when I cbet 1/5 or 1/4 pot with pure air when he would defend his bb.

We couldn’t chop per se bc it was wsop circuit. Idk if we could somehow agree to $ amounts and then play it out but when someone brought up chop- dealer just said they don’t facilitate chops and it seemed like there would be no way they would stop clock if a chop was going to be made (idk if a chop can be done but it seems informal and like tourny staff will not allow players to write up #s for payouts)- I’m prolly wrong but yea idk if you can chop WSOP events. I prolly would have agreed to a chop as I didn’t have a huge stack/ advantage in this situation as I felt 2 of the 3 players were solid (not great but competent and didn’t see them making blaring mistakes- the chip leaders were playing very aggro and torching me when I was a short stack). If this was a general tstone event/ I’m quite sure we would have gotten a chop done.

Agree with this. At final table, I went all in before this on river 2 times with nutty hands and only one was shown down. I also ripped AK in against a sb raise (losing value sure but felt sb Vs bb dynamics were there that would warrant the play and maybe look a little spazzy.

I think the 4bet is too big, would go more like 500k, this also gives you some maneuverability post

As I understand this thread, you were the "wild player" at the table which is probably the opposite table image of lifenitfl. Regardless, it's just another tool in the tool box to consider. With 50bbs and this chip distribution, every one was within one to two "normal" pots of each other. If it was proposed after a long day, a chop offer at the right time might have gotten you a risk free second place result, which was almost double 4th place.

Great username.

And yeah, I was under the impression that we were supposed to go 2.2x 4 bet IP, 2.5x 4 bet OOP.