Having never played home games outside of cheap buy-in games with friends who aren't poker players, what is it like playing for that much money in a home game environment? Any concerns people won't pay up? How do they treat new players who get invited by only knowing one of the people?

Although I'm not familiar with any other areas, I suspect that the Denver area home game environment is different than any area that has had casinos for many years. Almost all of the guys in my game have known each other for at least a decade, either through the crappy $5 max bet games that used to run in Black Hawk or through larger buy in "home games" (I believe there are/were many raked games around town, certainly I know there are some bigger stakes games around town. The crazy straddler guy in my guy once lost a $15K pot in NLHE to a well-known ambulance chasing lawyer in town).

We do have a couple of dealers who just get tips, so that's a big positive. More generally, it's almost always an older crowd (I'm usually the youngest guy in the room) and most if not all of the group is well-rolled (medical doctor, chiropractor, accountant, etc) so the stakes don't seem to cause anybody stress, at least not visibly, and the group is almost disturbingly regular, even the losers return week after week. The stakes are deemed appropriate for a friendly game! It was slightly unnerving when I first started playing since I had only ever played 2/5 NL, and 5/10 PL plays way bigger. But back then the buy in was only $500, which is way too light for those stakes, especially when there is a lot of straddling. Now the min buy is $1000 with $500 rebuys ($2000 buy in for the 40/80 mix). At the 40/80 mix I saw a couple of the looser players raise before the first draw in 2-7 and draw 4 (or 5!)! Just gives you some perspective about how much $$$ some of these guys have I suppose.

Regarding concerns about paying: almost everyone brings enough cash so it doesn't seem to be an issue. Sometimes people will write a check, and I've never heard of one bouncing and don't believe it has happened since I started playing with this group since the checkwriters are always back the next week. The players would have to overwhelmingly agree to let someone play on credit but it doesn't appear to be an issue.

Regarding new players: it was less than a year ago that I was a new player. I knew a handful of guys as regs at the old 2/5-100 O8 game from Golden Gates but I played infrequently enough that they didn't know me. I helped start the 10/20 mixed game on Fridays at one guys house and got to know some of the players that way, did that for a few weeks before I got invited to the 5/10 PL Wednesday game. You talk sports, sports betting, girls, golf, and cars, and you're one of the gang.

The game is almost always full (9-11 players) so there's not much room for new players. I can only think of one guy who joined the game after me, and he met one of the hosts at Ameristar. Seems like everyone treats him just fine, it a fairly friendly crowd, perhaps it's just that their rolls are big enough that this is just a "friendly" home game to them. When I see him at the casino we chat a bit, he plays 2/5-100 and asks me about the 30/60 game, much as I did to some of the other guys in this home game several months ago.

Bad beat jackpot! And I had the winning hand, quad 9s vs quad 6s, flop T96, turn 9, river 6. I get 30% of $286K! More later

Wow, seriously??? That is awesome. Time to move up.

Quads 9s

Pocket 9s. AKA Phil Hellmuth or Wayne Gretzky. How about The Great One? I like that better than Wayne Gretzky. Whatever you call it, 99 is my hand. The way it became my hand happened around 5 years ago, playing 1-2 NLHE at Mandalay Bay. I was very much a live novice and not an especially good player. I would never play this hand the same way now, but here’s what happened. A couple of limpers, and I look down at 99 on the button. And I call (don’t hate me). Five of us see a flop of 965r, BB bets (I don’t remember the amounts, this hand was a long time ago), one of the limpers calls, and I call. Turn is an A, BB checks, limper bets, I call. River is the case 9! Checked to me and I bet like 20% of the pot, they both call. And it turns out that Mandalay Bay pays out quads as a jackpot hand, and they bring me $500. I decided to reinvest that in the local economy, and bought this watch (one on the right obviously):



I think it was only around $150 but it’s kinda cool, titanium with the orange face. I always refer it as my Quad9s Watch.

Fast forward to Friday night. I didn’t play cards because a friend was performing with her jazz/blues cover band at a local club, and I went with a few friends. And since I dressed a little nicer than usual, I took off the usual sports watch and wore the Q9sW. So when I got dressed to go to the Ameristar on Saturday afternoon, my watch was sitting out on the coffee table, and I decided to wear it for a change.

I’d been playing for close to 7 hours when the following hand happens. I’m at the main must-move table (the one that feeds the main games), been there for probably an hour. Surprisingly, I barely recognize anyone at the table. One of the strong regulars has just finished racking his chips to move to the main game. A weak reg is moving from the 10 seat to the 1 seat, and it is her big blind. UTG folds, and I raise 99 from UTG+1. Folds to the button (slight aside: Paul Wasicka is in the 6 seat, he was giving me fits at the previous must-move as he was directly on my right), an Asian guy that I’ve seen before there but only occasionally, calls. This villain has been pretty easy to read, not very aggressive without huge hands. SB (older Asian woman, weak tight) and BB both call. Four way to the flop, pot $240.

Flop is T96. Blinds check to me, I bet, button raises (!) and both blinds call. While 87 is certainly in his range, so is T9+. And I’ve got two weak callers. So I 3-bet, button calls and SB calls, BB folds. Pot $570.

Turn is 9. SB checks, I check, button bets, SB calls, I c/r. Button looks confused and calls. SB folds, so we are heads-up to the river. Pot $870.

River is 6. I bet, and button raises! And I’m thinking to myself, “Wow! This could be it”. But I’ve thought that many times before, to no avail. I 3-bet, and button 4-bets! And I’m thinking, “NFW this guy has Tens full! He must have quad 6s!” And I 5-bet. He 6-bets! And I was certain. People at the table are getting excited in anticipation. He says something like, “If you have quad 9s, you’re good!’ LOL, I 7-bet, my hands are shaking. He 8-bets. Players at the neighboring tables are starting to notice.

Finally, I 15-bet him (LOL) and he is all in for $880. I announce, “I have quad nines”. He announces, “I have quad sixes”, we table our hands and everyone goes nuts.

The bad beat jackpot qualifier at the Ameristar is quads beaten, must be a pocket pair for quads. Colorado has huge BBJs because they rake $2/hand at every hold’em table ($1 at $10 and a $1 at $20, I think). The losing hand gets 40%, winning hand 30%, and everybody dealt into the hand gets table share, they divide up the remaining 30%. The casino has 3 jackpots, they keep building them so they stay roughly equal. The main one hit about a week ago, so mine was a little smaller but not much.





It was quite the spectacle. The dealer is one of my favorites, I was happy it was her who dealt it. They stopped the game to review video, count out the deck, etc. We all filled out tax forms and took pictures. Cocktail waitress brought champagne. It was very cool. Quad 6s guy asked me why my hand was shaking so much, LOL, cause my heart rate was around 160 BPM perhaps?

Took them about an hour to get the game restarted, we played short-handed for another hour or so until they brought out the loot. I took most of mine as a check (no taxes taken out, the host of my Wednesday game is an accountant). Many took all cash, and the dealer had to count it all out before handing it over. The losing hand took all of his in cash, it was hysterical watching him stuff $10K bricks into his front pockets.

I finally left the casino around 230, but couldn’t fall asleep when I got home. My parents and sister live on the east coast, I called them with the news around 630 AM my time, they were more than a little surprised to be hearing from me at that hour. Went to breakfast with my poker buddy and his girl, they were both excited for me. I slept through most of the Broncos win today but woke up in time for the 4th quarter.

It was quite the night. Not life-changing money by any means, but still a giant chunk of change. People were asking me if I was going to buy a car or take a trip. I just bought a car a couple of months ago, I have a trip to Mexico booked in a couple of weeks. No real plans for the money, just bring some nice champagne to the Wednesday game, a few bottles of top-shelf liquor for my group at work, charity and investments for the rest. Oh, I just realized I’m rolled for the 75/150 Omaha/8 game at the WSOP!

But there is no "up" here in Colorado, this is literally the biggest game in town (at least at the casino). And I doubt that one could find a bigger game that is as soft as this one. But I'm already thinking about the WSOP...

Congrats
I can confirm that the 75 game during the series is excellent.
As are most 80 or 100 LHE games that go at Bellagio during the summer

Ok, I already knew about your score from the other CO thread, but reading the details and seeing the pictures is even better. Matt Moore would be proud!

On the Bad Beat Jackpot

So my recent BBJ hand has me thinking more about the whole concept. I’ve always hated the BBJ-they’re taking money off the table for what is essentially a lottery ticket. If I’m in a short-handed game and everyone is amenable, I’ll always get the BBJ drop taken off. All the casinos in Black Hawk take up to $2/hand (I believe it’s $1 at $10 and a second at $20 but I’m not certain of that). At the 30/60 LHE game it’s definitely $2/hand, every hand. That’s roughly $60/hr! $6/hr of that is my money. Six lottery tickets every hour. WTF?! At my 30/60 game this is 0.1 BB/hr, a significant fraction of a solid win rate. At 15/30 it would be 0.2 BB/hr. At 4/8, 0.75 BB/hr!

Now, if there’s no administrative fees, then the BBJ is neutral EV. But the reality is that the variance is ridiculous since it hits so infrequently. Most players are in the red no matter how often they play. I’m good for ~14,000 of play at $2/hand. Considering almost all of my play is Friday/Saturday night, I’ve got around ~1000 weekends, 20 years or so, before I’m back in the red.

But what about the fish factor?? Some players will play almost any hand that could hit a bad beat (any pair, suited connector, down to suited 3-gap). So my question is: does that $60/hr get put back into the pot by the bad beat chasers? I can see the argument either way: at my game, there’s plenty of bad players that might limp-call preflop with 42s because “it’s a bad beat hand”. It only takes one play like that an hour for this to be net neutral EV, even if you assume you your < jackpot$$$>=0. And there’s likely more than one play like this per hour.

On the other hand, I can also argue fishes are fishes, they’re gonna play any two suited regardless of the bad beat. This argument is also completely valid in my view. Maybe for some of the slightly nittier fish the size of the BBJ matters. A couple of years ago, all three tiers at the Ameristar were $700K+. $280K for the losing hand, that’s some serious dough. So given the stakes I'm playing now and the fishiness of the players, the bad beat doesn't seem to be as negative EV as I once thought. Is this just me being results oriented?

Last night’s PLO/PLO8 game was relatively uneventful. I bought dinner for everyone from the nice Italian place to celebrate my BBJ, much better than the usual Chinese food that we order. The crazy straddler (see post # 39) sat directly to my right so I was UTG every hand that wasn’t straddled elsewhere. It’s actually not a bad scenario since it forces me to only play very strong starters, plus I have position. And this guy will raise 80% of the time if his straddle isn’t raised, you’d think he might learn to be a bit more cautious against me but no, his game is aggression. Fair enough, it works for him, although he was stuck $5K at one point last night before coming way back.

Here’s the only interesting hand (high only this hand): button has the straddle, 3 callers to me in the cutoff, and I call AK44ds. Pot $105. Flop is 542r, checked to me and I bet pot. Only caller is the SB, and he is probably the toughest player in the game. I really don’t like his call. Set of 5s or 2s? 678x? A3xx? Pot $315. Turn is 7. He checks, and I check back. River 5, and he bets out $225. ****. If he had a straight on the turn he for sure checks here. He has to have 52xx or 22xx. I really want to fold because he’s so tough, but I have to know, and I call. He has 542x. Sigh. As usual, most of the table is incredulous that I even considered folding here. Despite this one crappy call, I played well and won ~$900.

I guess there was one other kinda interesting hand. I straddle the button and have AT99ds, I call a raise to $30 and 4 of us see a flop. Flop is 986r. Loose player bets out, and I call, we're heads-up to the turn. Turn 6! I have this déjà vu feeling, and better checks to me and I bet pot ($280). He calls. River is 4, he check/folds. Even in PLO8, 99 works for me…

Thanks! You seem to know all the medium stakes games, how long have you been playing them? Are you gonna play WSOP this year?

Except instead of going to work the next day he'd be writing about partying with strippers...

Almost forgot: got a call earlier this evening from the poker room manager at the Ameristar, an audit showed they shorted my payout by 1 penny! The message said I could just call and decline it. I called and told the guy I wanted it, and I wanted a check for $0.01 He didn't buy it for second

sick brag with the BBJ. Congrats!!

I hope you can use that to crush the 75/150 games during the WSOP.

So I went up last night for a rare Thurs night session. Your BBJ partner was there - seems like a very nice guy, obviously very happy. Now I don't know how he played before this big score, but he's now a very reliable ATM. In 45min he blew through $5k. We opened the 2nd table, he bought in for $2k, reloaded for $3k, then hit the road. He kept lamenting his bad luck on losing so many hands, but it certainly wasn't the luck that was bad…He was calling everything. I tried to run a bluff on him (I know stupid, he's not folding), and I was amazed when my 4th pair won a monster pot cause he called the river bet with A high. Hopefully he's there again on Saturday...

On the topic of BBJ and the promotion rake, a lot of poker rooms also use this fund to add money to daily tourneys. This way the casino can rake a higher percentage of the tourney, but keep the prize pool unaffected, which is basically just laundering promotional money into their own pockets.

How much you tip on bbj?

Thanks! I hope so too...

Nice! He was actually pretty solid before that, didn't play many hands, although not very aggressive. $5K in 45 minutes is pretty bad.

Ah, I have heard that, but at least at the Ameristar Black Hawk it doesn't apply since they do not have any tournaments. The Golden Gates is really the tournament room in CO. They also have a BBJ, and it can get pretty big at times. To the best of knowledge they don't do this either but I can't be certain.

When I won my jackpot at Mandalay Bay, one of the locals told me that it was customary to tip the dealer 10% on these things, so I did. Jokes on me, I guess, he was taking care of his dealers, and I was very inexperienced at that time. Only $50, w/e.

In the B&M forum there is an entire tipping containment thread. I was browsing it after my BBJ to see what people were saying. Of course there's always some who say $20 or $100 or $0 (it's all player funded afterall). And I had thought about this some before it happened, not a specific percentage but rather I thought that 1) I would give something to a bunch of the friendly dealers that make that room a fun place for me, and 2) if one of the crappy dealers dealt it, I would still tip him/her just not quite as well.

On top of the gal who dealt it, I ended up giving out 1-2 black chips (only a few got 2) to close to 20 dealers, plus the cashiers and the food/chip runner (nice guy, hustles his a$$ off).

I'd rather not say the exact amount I gave the dealer but I think she was happy. It was very consistent with what this guy said: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...l#post40446769. FWIW, I'd say a majority of the posts around there are in the 3-5% range, if you include what I gave to everyone else then I was at the high end of that range. Manna from heaven, right?

Not allowed to do that in Colorado as far as I know.

just found the thread. Good read... I too hop around from the 2/5/100 HE and the 30/60 HE. I find myself playing the 2/5/100 a bit more due to games usually being easier (but not as much money) and less swings. Congrats on the BBJ, glad a local hit it. I now know your real life identity...did not know you were a mountain biker, will give a whats up next time I see you at ameristar and maybe do a ride in the spring. Headed to vegas for any of the Venetian DS?

I've seen your posts in the Colorado thread, figured we might know one another from the 30/60 game. Since I pretty much only play Friday and Saturday, the 30/60 game is at its best then, although I suppose the 2/5-100 is as well. My limited experience during the week is that 30/60 varies but 2/5 is still pretty soft. But I rarely play that now, I can handle the swings (even before the BBJ, I've been bankroll building at 2/5-100 for awhile).

Definitely would like to do some riding followed by poker! There's another 30/60 player that I've talked mtn bikes with, he'd probably join us, but he looks young and fast, maybe you are too?

Not going to Venetian DS now, I have an invitation to Steamboat for the weekend that I'm considering, and I'm going to Mexico for a few days next week (this was planned for a while). But I saw they just posted the dates for the spring DSE, I'd like to play some then, heard the cash games are extra good then. Heartland is coming to the Gates in a couple of weeks, too.

All Good Heaters Must Come to an End

Friday night saw the end of my winning streak, stopped at 14 sessions of 30/60 LHE. I didn’t write up the rest of my previous Saturday night session from last week as the quad 9s hand was the dominant story. But since my opponent was kind enough to push his last $880 to me on the river, I ended that session in the black for my 14th consecutive winning session. Not long after I started the session at the 4th table, a guy who looked vaguely familiar sat down to my right, in the one seat. Despite the fact that I didn’t recall playing with him before, this guy was clearly no noob. He never once open limped. If there was only one limper and he was in late position, he either folded or raised. And he ran good, played some marginal hands (J7s) and got there what seemed like every time. I found myself 3-betting him a fair amount, sometimes as weak as 87s. After one of the dealers addressed him by his first name, I realized why I recognized him and why he knows what he was doing: this is Paul Wasicka, 2nd in the 2006 Main Event and winner of the 2007 Heads-Up national Championship. I’d heard that he shows up at the Ameristar on occasion but had never played with him before. I almost bought the house that he sold in Boulder a few years ago, nice house and great location but someone else bought while I was still on the fence. I chatted with him a bit while we were waiting to get our money for the BBJ, seemed like a pretty nice guy. Maybe the biggest name pro I have played with even if he has been fairly quiet for several years, at least the pro with the highest ME finish.

Back to Friday: lots of great starting hands but things just didn’t go my way. I ran both KK and QQ into AA. JJ got outflopped by AQ in 4-bet preflop kill pot. KK got outflopped by 77 on a 744 board in which my KK was nicely disguised in the BB. All pretty standard stuff, just stacked one right after the other was a little rough. The only hand that really hurt was when my AA got cracked by a 53s from UTG, and the winner asked to see my cards when I mucked, so classless. But she’s a total fish (obviously, 53s UTG, LOL) so whatever. I started out the evening great, won a huge pot when I raised Q9s from the cutoff with 4 limpers, flopped 9xx with 2 of my suit, got there on the turn and got paid on every street. I was up around $1000 before the doom switch finally got flipped, and I was stuck around $1500 by the time I racked up at some ungodly hour in the morning. Despite the loss and staying too late, I think I played well the entire time.

Saturday saw the start of what I hope is another long winning streak. I helped start the 4th table, and DrSwaggerWagon sat down on my left about 20 minutes later. Over the course of my 6 hour session I ended up playing several notable hands against him, I’ll post some of those separately. He turned out to be one of the tougher opponents at the table and I’d just as soon avoid him, especially when he has the run-good as he did on Saturday! Probably the most notable hand of the night wasn’t one I was in, but I saw two guys get into a raising war on the river when the nuts would be 54 to make a wheel. It was a kill pot and they both put in ~$1000. First guy turns over his 54, second guy turns over his 65! Ooops, misread his hand, $1K lit on fire.

Still had a lot of people asking me about the BBJ, and of course I didn’t mind talking about it. The only depressing story was the bad regular who told me that if he won it he’d take his cash and never come back, it would get him unstuck as he’s down $65K since last March. Ouch. A huge fraction of that jackpot must be 30/60 money, I found out that the drop is $1 at $6 and a second at $40, so every 30/60 hand drops $2 unless it’s folded around. And the 30/60 runs all the time, as many tables as 1/2 except on Friday and Saturday nights. Apparently this was the first BBJ at 30/60 in a long time, at least six months.

I was stuck around $1K for a good bit of the session but came roaring back when I woke up with AA in a kill pot and 3-bet it to get heads-up, A on the turn and villain folded. And I rivered the nut flush on the button in huge multiway pot. Racked up ~$500 in the black, one in a row!

DrSwaggerWagon Suckout Post

Just kidding, DocSwag!

DSW had some serious run-good against me on Saturday night, coming from way behind on turn 3 times to beat me. But I don’t think he really misplayed any of these hands, with the possible exception of the third one. And Doc, FWIW, I thought you were a tough opponent, you played very strongly, lots of good in-position raising, I’m sure you’re a winning player in that game, you’ll win even more if you lose the FPS, especially against me ;-)

I started the 4th 30/60 LHE table and DSW took the last empty seat, directly to my left, 20 minutes later. About 5 minutes later we play this hand: Folded to me on the button, I raise JJ, DSW 3-bets from the SB, BB folds, I 4-bet, DSW calls. Flop is 996, DSW ck/calls. Turn T, DSW ck/calls. River is a blank, DSW cks, I think for a minute about checking behind but I think he might pay me off with AK here, but he c/r and I call. Of course he shows me TT. NH Doc, no way you’re folding that flop.

A couple of hours later we’re both at the main game, I’m in the 6 seat, DSW is in the 9. One limp, I limp 44 from middle position, 7 seat limps, DSW raises from the button, bunch of calls. Flop is JJ4. Checked to DSW, who bets, folds to Hero who flats to give the guy between us a chance to call or raise if he has a J, but he folds. Turn 9, Hero leads, DSW raises, Hero 3-bets, DSW calls. River Q (JJ49Q), Hero bets, DSW raises, Hero calls. DSW shows his J9s. Sigh. Another nice hand Doc, the way that hand played out was inevitable.

Same main game, one limper, and I raise from middle position with QQ, DSW calls from the button, BB (super calling station) calls, limper calls. Flop is T62, ckd to me, I bet, DSW raises, BB cold calls 2, I bet, and DSW and BB call. Turn Ks, not exactly the card I was looking for, BB ck, I bet, call, call. River 5d, and we all check. BB shows A6, I show my QQ, and DSW shows KJ FTW. Hmmm, Doc, I can see calling the flop there with your 2 overs, but raise/call, wtf? Even the raise I don’t mind, but what are you ahead of when I 3-bet? No pair and no draw, shoulda let this one go.

I did catch DSW in one hand, when we were at the first must move. I opened from UTG with 88, he 3 bets, and we’re heads-up to a flop of 96x. I ck and he chks behind. Turn is 9, I bet and he raises. Confused now, what can he have that cks behind on flop in position, so I call, and I call a blank river. He rolls over AQ. Two 9s on the board Doc, that my board, stay away! Anyway, the turn raise is okay but I would’ve checked back on the river, once I call the turn raise there’s no way I’m folding the river unless an A comes.

Nice playing and chatting with you, see again soon.

Preflop 4 bet is bad against good players because it is very difficult to balance correctly. Calling your entire range is much stronger and gets the same amount of preflop/flop bets in if you raise his flop bet while at the same time protecting your entire range.

It was great to finally meet you quant! And run-good against you is an understatement. Can't believe my good luck in those first two hands. And yeah, I felt a little sheepish rolling over the winner in that KJdd vs QQ's hand. Those previous hands I think emboldened me to get out of line with AQ on that last one.

I stayed a few more hours after you, racked up a good score. I'm on a nice little winning streak of my own. Busy the next couple of weeks so I'll probably see you again in Feb. Keep posting so I can continue to live vicariously through your game...

A Weekend without Poker!

Not much to report this week, I actually didn’t play at Ameristar at all this past weekend. Friday was pretty dicey roads due to snow, and I was run down from a long week at work, so I decided to pass. And Saturday I went to a friend’s party. Okay, it was a poker tournament, but at $20 + $15 rebuy where half the people don’t really know how to play, I don’t really count this, it’s very much a social occasion with poker, rather than the other way around.

Last Wednesday’s mixed game did not go well. They decided to make it a green chip game to simplify the pots, 50/100 is now the stakes. A year ago I was intimidated by the 30/60 stakes until I played O/8 at those stakes, now I play these crazy mixed games for way more money. I was stuck ~ $2K when I finally left, not really a disaster (20 big bets) but frustrating nonetheless. Hard to say if I was unlucky or just played badly, I think it was a bit of both, I was only a paired board on the river in limit O/8 away from even. Crazy straddler from the PLO/PLO8 game played this night, he was stuck ~$6K when I left.

Off to Mexico (http://www.sayulitabeach.com/warm-sea) for a few beach days, so no poker this coming week. Timing is great, it’s very cold here now, I’m looking forward to some warm sunshine for a few days. This will be my first non-Vegas vacation in a couple of years!

Also, WSOP schedule is up now. I have tentative plans to play events 5 (2500 Omaha/7 Stud Hi-Lo) and 6 (Millionaire Maker). Also considering event 10 (1500 limit hold ‘em, of course) but I wonder if I wouldn’t be better off saving that money for a cash game…

Don't make your WSOP plans just yet. That was a leaked schedule and has since been taken down. New "official" schedule probably will be out in a few days...