Villain is a lagtag who plats pretty well.

Party Poker $15.00/$30.00 Limit Hold'em - 3 players
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Pre Flop: (1.667 SB) Hero is BB with 3 3
BTN raises, SB calls, Hero calls

Flop: (6 SB) Q 6 2 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB folds, Hero calls

Turn: (4 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero calls

River: (6 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero calls

unless he's turning A high into a bluff here sometimes he doesn't have enough bluffs in his range to make your river call worth while.

-Bill

I don't think he's platting here.

Well, if he's firing a second barrel on that turn card, he should be firing the third barrel most of the time. The 8 kinda sucks, though, because it hits a lot of hands you could have peeled the turn with (so he may give up sometimes) plus it hits a lot of the hands he could have been semibluffing with. There's really only JT, J9 and some weak suited hands, unless he's barrelling K-high expecting you to c/c, c/c, c/f A-high. So if you've been taking that line some, then I'd say calldown here. Otherwise probably fold. Can he value bet a deuce here?

I do fold this a lot. The main things I'm wondering are

1) If I'm folding this, am I folding the 65 also? Where do you draw the line?

2) If I fold 33 here, am I calling with enough hands to not be exploited?

3) Does it even matter?

My assumptions could be optimistic but I think a good LAGTAG that plays well 3 handed would have quite a wide range here even though he is triple barreling. I feel like there are quite a few hands that has little or no showdown value that he'd rather bet the river with.

This is also going with the assumption that this LAGTAG is balancing taking a free card on this turn and opting to double/triple barrel quite well. From my experience, a competent LAGTAG wouldn't take the free card on this turn card as much 3 handed but would rather double/triple barrel, even with hands that have little showdown value. If villan notices that HEROs flop/turn peel range is the bottom range of hands I think a competent LAGTAG would be able to adjust accordingly.

Maybe this isn't the case but taking a free card here too often seems like it would make villans hand too transparent and would be run over by HERO who would realize how transparent villans hand is and adjust accordingly.

1). I call with 65 but I would cr with 65 on the flop. I'd probably fold 33 against a good LAGTAG on this board.
2). Depends on how good villan is. LAGTAGs might be able to exploit this if they knew your hand range that well.
3). I'd imagine a good LAGTAG would have a wide enough hand range here where it's not so cut&dry to say whats right or wrong. Considering that I don't think we are giving up that much.

It's just kind of a weird spot because of the hands in his button stealing range that this board hits. The only hands he can 'bluff' here are some Kx and Jx hands that make up less than 10% of his range so in order to get enough bluffs in his range to make you want to call 33, or even a weak 6, he'll have to start turning his Ax hands into bluffs which most of the more sane players won't do.

I think you draw the line for calling when you beat a very small percentage of his value betting hands.

-Bill

What hands do you have in your range when you peel both flop and turn? Would you c/r a A or K-high flushdraw on turn? Would you c/r a 6 on the flop?

If I ended up in this situation I would use 55 as bluffcatcher and I think it's enough.

you really would play 65 cc cc ? I think its a pretty strong hand to cr the flop against his BU range. Except if he is barreling every turn anyway, then cc is ok, i think.

As played, i think its an pretty easy fold. I think, he would check A-high behind, and there are really not so many hands w/o sd value, he could turn into a bluff. J-high is only JT, J9 unimproved, K-high only KT, KJ, K9. K5 is imho to loose for his range, but i dont know. The other question is, would he really bet this turn again with those kind of hands? Cant say that, but i think he would take a freecard at least with some of them.

So i would say, his range on the river is mostly hands, that valuebet here and there are not enough worse hands for a cc.

What's the diff between 55 and 33 here? Not much unless villain is trying to v-town 44.

Nina, how often would you c/r your 3s here on the flop? Villain is going to miss this flop a ton and any pair is in decent shape, even 3s.

obv very little difference but since callin 33 and folding 55 makes no sense to me I do it the other way around.

My point was that if we're calling 55, then we should probably be calling w/ 33 as well.

i dont think anyone has mentioned a flop c/r yet. unless villain 3barrels enough to make this river an easy call i think there is more value in getting ace-high or deuce calldowns.

there's plenty of draw combos villain can give you on this flop.

I don't agree since we'll be calling a too large part of our range then. I think we only need to call 6-7 combos from our "non value"-part of our total range on this river. I always use the best of my non-value hands as bluffcatchers so therefore I call 55 but not 33.

All our non-value hands are pretty similar in value here (33-55, A2) but we can't call all of them just because they are close in value.

It's not because they are close in value... it is because they are nearly identical in equity.

I mentioned it in my first post, but yeah... no one else really.

Oh and it has great shania value as well.

Take for instance when AK is the nut no pair hand and AT is the second nut no pair hand. Someone may see you call down w/ AK and go.. "ok, he though I was bluffing and AK hi is pretty strong here", but when you show up with AT, they're like "AT.. ZOMG WTFBBQ!!ELEVEN!!!" and then they proceed to pay you off for the next 3 hours because they think you are a moron!

agree... also we get to decide how many bets go in when we have the initiative, which i think helps us with this type of hand. we have a lot more options that way such as calling down further action, value betting the whole way or not based on how the board comes.

besides that if we do want to think about balance here, I would be bluffing this flop with a wider than usual range due to larger than usual pot, so it would make sense to have more hands playing for value in my range. but i think we have enough value regardless of image/balance/whatever

I don't really see any clear reason for c/r flop.
We are out of position so gaining the initiative is not making it alot easier for us to control pot size.

I think c/c c/c is a good way to play it on this board vs this opponent.
When he bets the river it gets tough, but I would probably call this hand for information and metagame mostly. I think that answers 2) and 3).
In a vacuum we are probably not good often enough for a call to be +EV.

And no I would not draw any line between 65 and 33 ever on this kind of board, because he never bets river with 44.

If I understand you correct you want to at least call with every hand that you have taken to the river in this situation?

Well I don't. I just want to call with enough hands to prevent him from having a profitable bluff on river. I don't think calling AT and folding 55 for metagame reasons makes sense.

i actually really like his point, its just very hard to apply. if you are sure that AT = 55 because you only beat a bluff, then its awesome to fold 55 and call AT because villain will get a very bad read on your range in that situation.

you have to be damn sure you're right about villain's range though (moreso than i ever plan on being), so this is pretty pointless analysis.

If we are sure it doesn't matter I dig it. But sometimes he fires AJ here and then i sucks calling AT and folding 55.

Exactly.
And for this reason I don't think folding 55 and calling with AT is a smart thing to do. I mean if villain is smart enough to think about relative hand value and stuff like that, then he is also smart enough to not moneky tilt because you call him down with AT.
He will see that there is not much difference between AT and 55 on this river, so you don't really gain all that much metagame/ tilt factor, or whatever you like to call it, with a AT calldown compared to a 55 call down.

And there are some lags who will bet AK here and maybe even AJ, which would just make it an EV disaster to fold 55 and call AT.

OP

Do you really play at Party? I dont get it.

Anyhoo. c/f river is fine as played.

Put me in flop c/r camp vs good regular. Basically for the reasons mentioned by others

Ive already explained it.

When I get hands from HEM, the converter interprets them as party poker.

I am so sorry to bug you your highness