I have virtually eliminated the delay untlil the turn raise from my game but this seems like a hand where it might be the best line. I am certain that villian will fire turn given his preflop cap. I've got the nuts, position, what flop line extracts most value?

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Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BTN with K K
UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG caps!, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: (16 SB) T K 4 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets Hero??

I would still raise the flop...we don't want SB or BB seeing the turn as calling might encourage them to come along for the ride w backdoor draws....this pot is already huge and raising increases our chances of winning it.

Spew flop ainc. So many draws to collect from. Our hand is still vulnerable and not strong enough to slowplay.

raise flop man. pot is huge, u dont want the other 2 seeing the turn with random spades and such. plus its good to raise the nuts

I see I was being results oriented when my flop raise folded out the field. Wish I would have thought it through a lil more before I posted. I do slowplay some hands, this one happened soon after I posted. Thanks guys for correcting my thinking.

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Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BB with 4 J
2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: (2.5 SB) J 4 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: (1.25 BB) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls

River: (5.25 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls

I'd lead out here....flop is dry and if CO doesn't have anything, I think he'll call with most of this range. When you check the flop and he checks back, you lose value when villian hit the flop in some way, IMO.

Definitely do not lead this flop. (The J44) I If he has a jack, he's betting anyways, if he has nothing you want him to bluff. You could lead the turn, since it puts a lot of draws out there, but I think you played it perfect.

It's a good default play to almost never lead the flop vs one limper. Some players are so passive that it's good to lead, but with a board this dry I would never lead anything.

pretty big disconnect here

c/r the flop since most people will bet when checked to in unraised pots

Another factor here is a flop raise is much more likely to be called down by a worse hand then a turn raise. Often people focus on the turn getting checked though, but the main reason to raise any made hand is not to prevent free cards; it's to get value.

hand KK:

not raising this flop is really really bad, it's almost as bad as just folding the flop

it's a huge pot with 1000s of draws. Do you really want As 8c seeing this turn for 1sb and turning an 8 outer to beat you in a big pot? no

raise and re raise and just keep raising


hand J4:

expert

Regarding the J4 hand:

I would lead the flop. Imo, if you can get value out of your hand, it is most likely you will get it if you bet the flop. If the flop gets checked through, and you bet a turn that doesn't hit his range, you will win nothing.

A player who openlimps the cut-off is certainly able to call a flop like this with any pair, a lot of A high hands and some K high hands, as well. If he is even worse, he might probably peel the flop with more hands than this.

The way the hand played out speaks in your favour, but I think you were lucky it turned out that way.

If you had some history with this villain and if you knew he could be capable of betting a lot when checked to, it would be a different story.

I strongly disagree. You should never lead here.

If he has something he'll bet it, and we can c/r. If he has nothing he'll bet, and we can c/r.

Habitually leading out on dry flops OOP is a very poor thing to do, for value or as a bluff.

... and he will fold to our check/raise.

I also disagree that he will bet, no matter what he has. A typical 1/2 player is not aggressive enough to bet this flop with air, but will happily call.

My point is that by betting we can at least try to build a pot. If we wait for the turn and bet, he will get 2-1 on a call and will correctly fold a large portion of his range.
On the flop we can give him the best odds on a call, while he is still wrong to continue.

If the flop came out K72 rainbow you could consider it a little more. But in such a big pot, on this board texture - drawy and wet - if they have a hand they want to continue with they'll likely do it for 2 bets as well as 1. So go ahead and start building a gigantic pot now.

imo, you are wrong


villain is going to bet with nothing way more than he will raise with nothing

another plus, when you c/r the flop, they hardly ever fold, even with nothing.


one more thing, if you both check the flop, who cares, if he checks back he was folding to your flop bet anyway, and maybe he turns a pair and now pays you off.

why bet the flop when you just crush the board and it's almost impossible for him to have a pair?

that's letting him off the hook

I was thinking that not leading out on the flop was a good move too, but the 8 outer comment is a good point.

you actually have two perfect hands to teach slowplaying


hand 2, small pot, 1 opponent, almost 0 chance of ever losing the pot to runner runner


and even if you CAN lose to runner runner, he is going to bet the flop, so you c/r his dumb drawing dead ass


in hand 1, it's a HUGE pot already. if you raise the flop and everyone folds, that's ok, it's a big pot and your hand isn't as good as you think it is. Any broadway spade on the turn you are either

1. losing
2. dodging 1/3 of the deck on the river


so in conclusion, in little pots vs. one opponenet, go ahead and slowplay

in big multiway pots, get everyone the **** out by betting and raising

win that BIG POT

He should lead the turn in the J4 hand though. Villain has already decided not to bluff. While he may change his mind, the chances are much lower now that he'll bet and the turn puts out quite a few hands villain can call or raise with that would either check through or b/c vs c/r.

Agreed. But I think he is going to call with nothing way more often than he is going to bet with nothing.

Imo, this is not necessarily true. I think he might actually check behind A or K high, but call the flop with these hands. And who knows, maybe he turns a pair and now pays two more bets.

It's certainly hard to win many additional bets in this tiny pot and I think looking for the best line to win the the maximum of the small value we will get on average is very tricky.

just trust me, betting the flop inthe j4 hand hu is bad


if it was 5 handed then just bet

I understand 1/2 fish do not do things rationally, but it's almost impossible for him to have a hand worth calling with (that he wouldn't bet himself) and it's extremely likely he would take a shot at this pot with nothing.

If he's gonna start checking back ace/king high here, and folding everything else when he's check raised, it is very good for us.

Leading here is a good way to win yourself the minimum, or nothing.