Easy laydown? - Small Stakes Shorthanded Poker

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Easy laydown?

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09-05-2007 , 04:58 PM

ChulioBarth

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,253

Villain is tagish.

Prima Poker skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with J

UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: A

(7.5SB, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: T

(4.75BB, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero

09-05-2007 , 05:01 PM

TheWunderkind

banned

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,492

no its a fold vs a taggish player

09-05-2007 , 05:14 PM

bigmac366

adept

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 976

anyone care to comment on if this an appropriate situation for the "turn value check"?

09-05-2007 , 05:18 PM

jba

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 9,666

Quote:

anyone care to comment on if this an appropriate situation for the "turn value check"?

he doesn't have any hands to bluff with except KQ and that's a pretty thin river call considering the pot size. this is a tough decision between bet/folding the turn and checking behind and folding the river. unless it's an ace/jack.

09-05-2007 , 05:25 PM

mvoss

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,396

Yeah this is a fold to me. I don't see us beeing ahead often enough to call down.

09-05-2007 , 05:28 PM

sethypooh21

Make or Miss League

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 47,037

Quote:

anyone care to comment on if this an appropriate situation for the "turn value check"?

Yup, my first thought as this is a decent bluffing spot with KcT or KQ/KJ with a club. Though will he fire the river UI? But check behind, call non-club river seems right.

09-05-2007 , 05:31 PM

Robin Foolz

adept

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,182

Quote:

anyone care to comment on if this an appropriate situation for the "turn value check"?

no. we'll get called here by a lot of stuff we beat, and we don't have any clubs. bet.

09-05-2007 , 05:38 PM

Robin Foolz

adept

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,182

Quote:

Yup, my first thought as this is a decent bluffing spot with KcT or KQ/KJ with a club.

if this guy is capable of doing this, and i know this, then this is more reason to bet--to give him a chance to bluff at it. usually people don't stop with just the turn c/r here if they making a play, they follow up with a river bet ui also. $$$

09-05-2007 , 05:41 PM

sethypooh21

Make or Miss League

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 47,037

Quote:

Yup, my first thought as this is a decent bluffing spot with KcT or KQ/KJ with a club.

Even against a guy who is capable of this, no way is paying 3BB +EV.

09-05-2007 , 05:55 PM

#10

Robin Foolz

adept

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,182

btw, i know of nothing of villain. as for the hand itself, seems like standard fold to me. c/r oop by utg opener is pretty strong.

09-05-2007 , 05:57 PM

#11

Robin Foolz

adept

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,182

Quote:

Yup, my first thought as this is a decent bluffing spot with KcT or KQ/KJ with a club.

Even against a guy who is capable of this, no way is paying 3BB +EV.

if theoretical villain in hu pots is cabable of semibluffing/bluffing, you want to bet every chance you get to give him a chance to bluff raise. if he's willing to bluff by shoving 3bbs in there, why stop him (or better word: why not present him the chance to?)

09-05-2007 , 06:01 PM

#12

milesdyson

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Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 23,856

just because they are capable doesn't mean you should give them the chance. if you are going to call down when their bluffing frequency is too low to warrant calling down, then betting in spots where he is capable of bluffing isn't correct. that isn't to say checking and calling or folding the river or even that checking is correct - just that calling down simply because "he is capable" isn't the right way to think about it. it depends on how many hands he has with which to bluff/semibluff given the action and how often he will take the chance to make the play.

09-05-2007 , 06:02 PM

#13

mvoss

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,396

Because his bluffing hands doesn't make up a big enough part of his range for it to be worth calling down.

09-05-2007 , 06:13 PM

#14

TheDudeChad

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 448

I know for a fact that I would bet this turn at the table. But the arguments for checking behind the turn look good. I'm not all that excited to give something like 88-66 with a club a free card, as they probably fold this turn to a bet. But I think you get CRed a lot here. So checking behind and calling anything but a K,Q or club looks good. A blank river is probably a decent spot for villain to bluff.

Quick hypothetical. Say villain calls our turn bet and checks to us on a blank river. Value bet?

09-05-2007 , 06:18 PM

#15

Robin Foolz

adept

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,182

Quote:

Because his bluffing hands doesn't make up a big enough part of his range for it to be worth calling down.

of course, y'know it all depends on your assumptions of what villain will and will not do. and it also depends on what range you give villain and how much your weight it this way or that way according to his actions and boards.

all i'm saying is that there are certain boards and certain spots and certain villains whose hand ranges are going to be weighted heavily towards drawing hands--my point is that in situations like these it's better to induce bluff bets/raises, if they're willing to do so, from the start of the hand and whenever possible. it's about making money.

09-05-2007 , 06:29 PM

#16

mvoss

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,396

Hey I'm just answering your question. And yeah I know it's about making [censored] money!!!

09-05-2007 , 10:33 PM

#17

TheHip41

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 27,049

check turn, call river, next hand.

09-05-2007 , 11:14 PM

#18

Absolution

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 9,021

I would try and break some response time record in the poker site's software as I pressed fold. Maybe they'd give me a prize. Fastest card-to-fold time ever.

09-06-2007 , 01:27 AM

#19

rzk

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,264

i'm in the turn value check camp. i think some people forget that the villain won't _always_ put us in a difficult spot on the river if we check the turn. sometimes we will check the river and call our bet with 77.

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