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Old 03-23-2013, 02:44 AM   #101
pg_780
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooksx View Post
Who knows when that's going to be? I'm all for LHE promos but I don't think it's easy to make the case that it's in Stars best interest to promote LHE over other games.
Doesn't Stars make the most off rake from LHE?

Also, I think there's a lot of people who think LHE is less risky and has less variance. It's a big misconception, but new players might be more comfortable trying FL than NL. Fish's money lasts longer at FL too--the longer their money is on the site the better, and they're more likey to re-deposit if the feel they've gotten good bang for their buck.

It's also a great game to play on a phone or tablet because you don't have to type in bet amounts.

A huge reason LHE slowed down and NL took over was cause they only showed NL on TV. Ppl want to play the game the TV pros play.

There's probably a lot of NL players who have given up or want to quit from years of losing. Maybe they try FL and win for a bit, they've found their new game!

A lot of ppl would probably like FL better if they gave it a chance. Stars needs to push shorthanded FL as the action game--"fast paced, tons of raising and reraising, lots of players per hand, lots of turn and river cards. A more fun game than NL--ppl don't take it as seriously. It's not a big deal to make a river call and lose. You can stick in there with your draws and try to hit" ect

Tons of reasons to promote LHE!

Last edited by pg_780; 03-23-2013 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:39 AM   #102
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

I think you underestimate the thrill of being all in or running a huge bluff.
Also, if you show an impressive NLHE hand, you don't need to know a lot about the game to know it's impressive. It's really hard to show an impressive LHE hand without getting "wtf is this ****".

That said, there's a large stigma around LHE of being a boring, non-bluffable game, but it's really hard to convince people otherwise.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:00 AM   #103
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

Some ppl don't like that thrill, they like playing out the hand and mutiway pots and seeing show downs and making backdoor straights and not being forced to fold pre flop. They like clicking buttons quickly and seeing bets fly in non stop and capped pots 4 ways. They don't like being bluffed off top pair or being forced to make big decisions. But a lot of them never try the game cause it's not what's on TV. The media drives their perception more than in-game experience.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:08 AM   #104
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

live mtt's are a great way to promote the game new players. big hairy ball moments wrapped into a nice little narrative with a winner(and losers) declared at the conclusion of the match.

unfortunately FR mid/short stack nlhe is one the of the most boring poker games ever created. my assumption is that unless a new depositor goes deep in one of the games s/he enters, they probably wont want to redeposit for anything less than a sunday storm/million/other big promotion in attempt to bink something nice.

stars will have have redeposit data we cant access, and can make the decisions that they think is in the best interest of their business. the best we can do is provide feedback and idea's. If players aren't redepositing, then promoting "other games" is a no brainer. This is the LHE forums, so we will obviously want some kind of promotion, but bias aside, i think its great for stars to incentivize people towards any game that isnt nlhe.

i think keeping it simple, and offer a similar promo for LHE as omaha. I disagree with the statement that LHE doesnt play well as tourney. "FLHE week" should look like this imo
- daily 6max $2.20, $11, and $33 with GTDs. no turbo bs. Double GTDs on sunday
- deposit bonus for LHE mtt tickets. eg dep $20 get 2x $2.20 LHE tix. $100 gets you 2x $11 tix
- Happy hours
- Promo strategy videos
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:59 PM   #105
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

My email to PS support (sorry for my english, I originaly wroted email in my native language):

Spoiler:


As a response I recieve ctrl+c ctrl+v "thank you for younr opinion, have a nice day" without any specific answer or someting.

So...those who earn Supernova status can be assured of being treated like stars.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:01 PM   #106
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

At least you got a response. I made my first ever complaint about a fellow player and for good reason and haven't received a response since Feb. 16th. As a multiple year SN player I'd at least expect a proper response even if the outcome is not to my liking.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:03 PM   #107
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_780 View Post
Doesn't Stars make the most off rake from LHE?

Also, I think there's a lot of people who think LHE is less risky and has less variance. It's a big misconception, but new players might be more comfortable trying FL than NL. Fish's money lasts longer at FL too--the longer their money is on the site the better, and they're more likey to re-deposit if the feel they've gotten good bang for their buck.

It's also a great game to play on a phone or tablet because you don't have to type in bet amounts.

A huge reason LHE slowed down and NL took over was cause they only showed NL on TV. Ppl want to play the game the TV pros play.

There's probably a lot of NL players who have given up or want to quit from years of losing. Maybe they try FL and win for a bit, they've found their new game!

A lot of ppl would probably like FL better if they gave it a chance. Stars needs to push shorthanded FL as the action game--"fast paced, tons of raising and reraising, lots of players per hand, lots of turn and river cards. A more fun game than NL--ppl don't take it as seriously. It's not a big deal to make a river call and lose. You can stick in there with your draws and try to hit" ect

Tons of reasons to promote LHE!
very good post imo, wish stars would pay some attention to this.

check out Stars section regarding different game variants on their hp, it looks very boring... nothing but the rules are explained, could they not put up a couple of videos for the different variants embellishing some of their respective amenities? I realize this is difficult task to do objectively but surely there must be a way. people just don't understand how action packed LHE is compared to NLHE and even PLO.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:45 AM   #108
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

PLO have 150% increase of traffic today
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:52 AM   #109
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_780 View Post
Doesn't Stars make the most off rake from LHE?

Also, I think there's a lot of people who think LHE is less risky and has less variance. It's a big misconception, but new players might be more comfortable trying FL than NL. Fish's money lasts longer at FL too--the longer their money is on the site the better, and they're more likey to re-deposit if the feel they've gotten good bang for their buck.

It's also a great game to play on a phone or tablet because you don't have to type in bet amounts.

A huge reason LHE slowed down and NL took over was cause they only showed NL on TV. Ppl want to play the game the TV pros play.

There's probably a lot of NL players who have given up or want to quit from years of losing. Maybe they try FL and win for a bit, they've found their new game!

A lot of ppl would probably like FL better if they gave it a chance. Stars needs to push shorthanded FL as the action game--"fast paced, tons of raising and reraising, lots of players per hand, lots of turn and river cards. A more fun game than NL--ppl don't take it as seriously. It's not a big deal to make a river call and lose. You can stick in there with your draws and try to hit" ect

Tons of reasons to promote LHE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
live mtt's are a great way to promote the game new players. big hairy ball moments wrapped into a nice little narrative with a winner(and losers) declared at the conclusion of the match.
I first got into LHE because I saw a FL WSOP event on TV and thought "That seems like a cool variation of Hold'em, there's only one bet size"
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:35 AM   #110
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

I got into LHE because I thought it was lower variance.

I always do my best to bring attention to LHE on other forums, but I really struggle with showing impressive hands. Things like Q high calls gets received with "ldo, you get a bazzillion to one", big multiway pots or sick beats gets received with "the F is this S?"
You guys know what kind of hands NLHE players find impressive or at least have a clue what's going on?
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:27 AM   #111
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

Hey LHE, I was linked to this thread from Sect7G who posted the following in the Player Rep Meeting Discussion Thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G View Post
Natis, It's great to see you are already seeking feedback.

If you don't mind could you read through this thread and let us know what points that have been raised would you be prepared to talk about with Pstars.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/22...games-1298974/

Once again best of luck next month.
I'll be one of the two reps going to meet with Pokerstars in a little less than a month from now, the other rep elected was Chadders so we'll be working together to get the information needed in preparation for the meeting, which includes the concerns and problems raised by you guys in this thread.

I've read over the thread a few times and tried to get a decent understanding of the current problems in the LHE games. The bad news is, I have little experience in LHE. The good news is it seems like the majority of the problems mentioned are the same or very similar to the type of problems we are trying to work out in NL where I do have the experience and have been involved with a lot of discussion regarding the topics recently.


I don't expect my thoughts below on LHE to be 100% spot on, that's why I am here. Please correct anything I am incorrect about, and add to anything else that you think would be useful. Any feedback from you guys in order for us to be better prepared and get a better grasp of the LHE games would be appreciated.

From reading the thread it looks like the major issues are:
  • Lack of LHE marketing/promotion causing in a decrease in the LHE player pool
  • Players trying to find free orbits
  • Grimming
  • Waitlist problems
  • Table Camping
  • Communication with Stars
If I am correct on those topics then to answer Sect7G's question I would be alright when it comes to talking about any of them I mentioned. If they aren't the same/very similar issues that we have in nlhe I can easily relate them to a similar one. So I'll need some help but nothing that should require anyone to break a sweat. The communication with Stars, grimming, wailist, and table camping problems all exist in nlhe and are very similar if not the same as far as I know. Although waitlist abuse is created by a different motive in nlhe I can relate to it and at first glance the solutions would be similar. In my CV I discussed how I felt the general vibe of the players feel like Stars doesn't understand them very well and said if the Players verify this and support it I'll bring the topic up at the meeting, by some of the posts in this thread it seems like that would be something very helpful for lhe players?

I could use some info on the promotions and also the players trying to get free orbits. Any information that you guys think would be helpful regarding either of these two problems would help. I think it would help me to start by just having a better idea of the current culture, such as what type of demographics makes up the majority of players, I saw someone mention the U.S. player pool made up a large percent of the players and losing them hurt LHE. Who are the current Pokerstars Pros who play LHE and where are these guys from? Any other info that is relevant would be great.

Regarding the players who try to find free orbits. I see guys use the 1 seat trick when starting new games in 6max nlhe a lot and also I think this situation can somewhat relate to some problems that exist with the new 'Table Starter' feature (although Stars takes action when players abuse the system here actually). But other examples or more info on this could help a lot as I don't have a full understanding of this.


I'm meeting with Chadders over the next couple days and we'll start the process of getting prepared, so I'll link him to this thread and he can get caught up on it. I'll check back here after I talk to him and see what sort of ideas, suggestions, or questions you guys have and follow up then.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:01 AM   #112
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

I think a really quick fix would be to only allow people to make new table at 6 max or full ring when there no available seat in them. That way regs can't just open up tons of table to play huhu and make the lobby a huge mess.
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Old 04-01-2013, 03:37 AM   #113
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexican_Natis View Post
I could use some info on the promotions and also the players trying to get free orbits. Any information that you guys think would be helpful regarding either of these two problems would help. I think it would help me to start by just having a better idea of the current culture, such as what type of demographics makes up the majority of players, I saw someone mention the U.S. player pool made up a large percent of the players and losing them hurt LHE. Who are the current Pokerstars Pros who play LHE and where are these guys from? Any other info that is relevant would be great.
Promotions: We have the milestone hands like everybody else and we had Negreanu donating something in a LHE challenge. They tried to keep this challenge going but there just aren't a lot of regs who want to play each other in this or PS pro's who want to donate to the LHE cause
Causes of this is likely the high level of play (close to GTO) and inability to get high stakes action to earn losses back. I don't play HU or high stakes so I could be wrong.
There was some idea tossed around to have scheduled high stakes LHE games by PS baard iirc, which was pretty well received, but I don't know what happened to that (maybe someone else can enlighten me). The idea was to have highstakes games at a certain times in the week (one or two days) where regs would agree to play who-ever was there for a certain time. Not sure if this still has enough support nowadays, since I don't see a specific whale anymore.
We've asked for some kind of game-specific promos for years since all game-specific promos go towards NLHE. We always got the answer they don't want to elevate one game above the other, but with the PLO promo we got now we assume there will be a LHE promo in the near future. Which we obviously like, but it's long overdue.
NLHE is the popular game, so if they give away tickets, it's for NLHE. I can understand this. However, if you get a 20$-reload ticket for WCOOP (or wich ever series), which you are supposed to use in any game, there are no LHE tourneys with that buy-in. Tournaments are great to get new players to the game, but they should be able to pick a LHE tournament (preferably non turbo).
The major problem we have, is that pokerstars is already the only big site for LHE. They have no incentive to create exposure to LHE players, because they all play on pokerstars already.

Demographics: Since USA, France, Italy and Spain are gone I guess most people are russians now. Germany is also well represented, but not really among the bad players.
We got one online pro who's a LHE player Tzen1 (Richard Veenman), unless I'm missing something at micro-stakes he's the only one who ever plays LHE. He plays like once a week on 2-4 to 5-10 often for a bit too many tables. He's dutch.
Online pro Donald used to play LHE, but I haven't seen him for 2 years+.

Thanks for taking your time to hear out the LHE community.

Last edited by G1lius; 04-01-2013 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:01 AM   #114
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

we need some kind of limit on how long you can sit and wait for games vs how often you refuse to play when games actually get going. This should incentives slightly more marginal games to get running and prevent the most extreme bumhunting out there.

ofc this wont really change much, but it should be an easy thing to do. The big underlying problem is lack of incoming fish obv, as i am sure it is with NLH as well
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:06 AM   #115
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

One another point is to keep " FIXED LIMIT" the first choice of games like now and don't change if new software or big update.
I saw die the limit games on ongame in march-april 2008 after a big update and where Limit become 3rd choice of game ; one year later i saw the same on ipoker after a update
I tell that because for me many recrationnals players don't really know what kind of game they play ; they just take the first game/table available.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:17 AM   #116
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

GL. Things seem pretty much fine to me. There's still some action and everyone more or less gets a fair shake at it.

There are a few things that cause me to be slightly annoyed. People waiting only to play hu is one. People starting tables and often being afk when someone sits is another (I, as well as most players are guilty of this to some degree, but a handful are far worse). But I highly doubt these things affect anyone's bottom line.

If you can somehow convince them to have a LHE focused promo we would all love you long time. If you're successful in that, maybe get them to ship a few k to my account as well.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:16 PM   #117
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJuan View Post
I think a really quick fix would be to only allow people to make new table at 6 max or full ring when there no available seat in them. That way regs can't just open up tons of table to play huhu and make the lobby a huge mess.
Natis thanks for repping us LHE players. This is the #1 issue imo and it would be very easy for Stars to implement it.
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:34 AM   #118
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

I agree with DonJuan's suggestion. And thx once again Natis for taking the time.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:51 PM   #119
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

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Originally Posted by G1lius View Post
Since pokerstars steve seems to read stuff when you pm them and this topic is already pretty long, I'll summon some questions we'd really like to get answered.
Thanks for the PM.

If you would like to make a thread in this forum exclusively for conversation with PokerStars staff, PokerStars Nick can drop by regularly to answer questions. We're aiming for (and generally delivering) weekly posts in the threads to respond to posts in the prior week. We don't discuss rake in such threads, though.

It's up to the mods as to whether to create a new thread or simply rename this one, but we'd request that the title make clear that it's a PokerStars feedback thread.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:14 PM   #120
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1lius View Post
- It is clear pokerstars is working on the issues of grimming, bumhunting, table-sitting and other 'moral' issues. Since LHE has the most problems with this, and usually the issues start at LHE and spread out to other games, we'd like to get some kind of timeframe for some of the issues. Pokerstars has asked us for our input only once, in the most non-issue subject there is in LHE, namely shortstacking. (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/53...games-1209621/) Why is this not possible for things that actually matter?
Two things here:
First, I know that the thread about ratholing was not popular nor was it an issue identified by players here. However, every suggestion emailed into PokerStars is considered as well. Every email with a suggestion is reviewed by a member of our Poker Room Management Team (we each take all emails arriving on a specific day, and assign days on a rotation) and noted on a spreadsheet. As it happens, addressing ratholing in limit games was emailed in as a suggestion by more than one person in a particular month, so we thought it was worth asking here whether you thought it was a problem. We asked here in particular because it was a limit issue and this is the most populated limit forum.

Second, yes, we have engaged the community multiple times on issues of grimming, bumhunting, etc. The major threads on these topics have been in the Internet Poker forum, which is inclusive of players of all forms of poker. If there is a better forum for discussion of online poker issues that cross many/most games, please let me know so I can use that forum instead. In any case, you have all been welcome to participate, and still are. We value your input and feedback!



Quote:
Originally Posted by G1lius View Post
- Some of these issues might be of lesser importance in big bet games. Is pokerstars considering applying certain fixes to LHE only, or will everything need to be NLHE-proof?
There is no current consideration of applying any specific changes to LHE only. However, that doesn't mean we wouldn't consider such changes if we felt it appropriate. Based on your screenshot, I think you will be pleased with some changes that we plan to implement soon. I can never give firm timeframes for development, but if these are not completed by midyear I will be disappointed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
We plan updates to our software to:
1) limit the number of non-dealing tables of each table type
2) Not allow players to sit out at tables that are not dealing.

The widespread deployment of Table Starters will enable these changes, as those who want to start tables but do not want to play HU or 3-handed will be able to utilize Table Starters to this end.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...l#post37327916



Quote:
Originally Posted by G1lius View Post
- Since there are PLO promos now, we expect there will be LHE promos in the future?
Here's a post that addresses this topic thoroughly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
There are a few things here I'd like to clarify.

The first is that there is a difference between having an overall policy of trying to push players into a certain game type and having individual promotions that only affect a subset of games.

We are not likely to pursue a policy of trying to manipulate players into participating in one particular game over others in the long run. I have heard players suggest that we should do this for their preferred game for many reasons, including that their game generates more rake and that it's easier for beginners to learn. Players should play THEIR OWN favorite games, not mine or yours.

We do think it makes sense to highlight each time of game for a short period of time in order to encourage interested players to try different game types. Perhaps that there are games that players like that they wouldn't otherwise try without a promotional nudge. Players in meetings have expressed that they like this idea and we agree. The first instance of this is Omaha week.

There was significant development effort required to support the happy hours portion of this promotion, both for tournament happy hours and for happy hours specific to game type. That's why it took 'so long' after the prior player meetings to put into place.

Regarding Limit hold'em promotions specifically, we did follow through on our committment during the player meetings. We committed to hold a SuperStar Showdown type match at LHE. We spent quite a lot of time trying to match players up, but in the end had to ask Daniel to play just to get a single match in because we couldn't find willing opponents otherwise. Even after the first match we were trying to find willing opponents for another one, but we were unable to do so.

If Omaha week is successful, you're likely to see similar weeks in the future featuring other games. Limit hold'em would be near or at the front of the line of other games to be promoted. It might well have been first, but the timing was right for an Omaha week due to the release of 5 Card Omaha and Courchevel. In any case, hopefully these promotions will go well and every game will get its turn.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...l#post37719052


Quote:
Originally Posted by G1lius View Post
- LHE is not a great tournament game, but non the less I'll point out some issues with the latest micro millions and other tournaments. Both LHE events are turbo. This is something NLHE players would like, since you'll get quickly to the all-in stages. We only get 2 tournaments, maybe one of them should be for actual LHE players?

I understand why you need to promote the zoom tournament, but this issue keeps coming back: why can I freeroll a ticket to NLHE events and not to a 5.5$ ticket which I can use for LHE? Why could I redeposit for a free 20$ wcoop ticket, while there where no 20$ LHE events? These are game specific promotions that can easily be converted to an all-game promotion.
These questions both deserve an answer, but I am not the man to answer them as I do not work on scheduled tournaments. It's far better to talk to those involved in decisionmaking than to hear from a messenger.

I have a meeting with promotions folks tomorrow. I will bring up the topic of increasing diversity of redemption options for promotional tickets. I suggest posting in scheduled tournament forums or sending a PM to BryanS-PS to discuss the MicroMillions issue.
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:28 PM   #121
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
Thanks for the PM.

If you would like to make a thread in this forum exclusively for conversation with PokerStars staff, PokerStars Nick can drop by regularly to answer questions. We're aiming for (and generally delivering) weekly posts in the threads to respond to posts in the prior week. We don't discuss rake in such threads, though.

It's up to the mods as to whether to create a new thread or simply rename this one, but we'd request that the title make clear that it's a PokerStars feedback thread.
Thank you very much for your reply!

I'm all for a new thread, this one's for discussing the state of LHE overall, there should be another one for asking stars LHE questions and sugestions.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:42 PM   #122
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of LHE cash games!

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I'm all for a new thread, this one's for discussing the state of LHE overall, there should be another one for asking stars LHE questions and sugestions.
This thread was intended for PokerStars games only, I forgot to mention that in the thread tiltle. I have asked a mod to rename it.

New thread is fine as well. Whats important is getting these issues fixed asap.

With the wcoop coming up Stars really need to deal hand for hand earlier than in normal tournaments because of the smaller player pool and the nature of fixed betting. People stall so early that post bubble is shallow stack poker. 3 places before money would be nice.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:10 PM   #123
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of PokerStars LHE cash games!

I've asked a mod to rename it too, but it didn't really get what I asked for.
Steve asked for the topic to be include 'PokerStars Feedback' or something similar.
Now I appreciate pokerstars being fully named, but it kinda needs to include something that makes it obvious pokerstars is answering questions in this topic.
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:45 AM   #124
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of PokerStars LHE cash games! (PokerStars Feedback)

Scoop tourneys look good.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:12 PM   #125
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Re: Discussion regarding the state of PokerStars LHE cash games! (PokerStars Feedback)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Scoop tourneys look good.
I agree the structures look good. Wish there was a Full Ring as well and the guarantees were up a bit but it's ok.
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