Hi Everyone,

I just wanted to let you know I'm following this thread, so if you have any suggestions, don't hesitate to post them.

I don't play on stars anymore, but what used to tilt the **** out of me was that I kept getting tons of freeroll tickets as a platium or gold VIP and over 5 years playing there I never used a single one of them since I (i) dont play tournaments (ii) don't play NL.

So the suggestion is as simple as it is brilliant: restrict rewards and free-rolls earned on the NL tourney circuit to to be used for LHE-cash! If not used you distribute these funds among the LHE player pool.

Below is what I posted in the High Stakes LHE thread as it relates to a thread about the ethics in LHE and what's been done about it. I'm hoping you can comment on it. I can only imagine how many recreational players have quit LHE due to Stars's lax stance on the issues.


Nick, I emailed Stars exactly 2 months ago complaining about a player who was doing something that was unethical and slowing the game down considerably, yet I've received no response from Stars and this player is still doing the same thing, along with dozens more.

This team that you speak of should be able to clean up 95% of all LHE angleshooting issues in little time if motivated. For a box of cookies and a list of objectives on what you actually want accomplished I could provide a list of offenders in under a day that would make the game more fair and enjoyable for all honest players. Due to these game annoyances, I've now switched game type as I no longer enjoy playing LHE on Stars due to Stars' failure to deal with the situations that they are perfectly well aware of.

Good to know Nick, good points by Xylocain and Sect7G and I also still dont recieve any response (if I dont count "thank you, but we dont care, so have a nice day.") to my email - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=105 .

Pokerstars Nick,

In this thread about so called "game creators" you confirm that

If I should follow the game creators logic there would be no tables running at all if they were banned. It is of course the recreational player whos the game creator.

Is it wrong if these "game creators" refuse game creating with the vast majority sitting in as the second player?

If this isnt acceptable, what will you do about it?

This is just... Its alright to fold or call? Lately I've seen pro grimmers from seat 1 (always gets button) timing out with a non-raising hand if game starts 3handed in hopes of 4th & 5th player joining in the meantime.

Alternatively, it would look like the grimmer is afk and of course sitting out when about to post big blind.

Im guessing that to any fair playing LHE ring game reg this is just an incredibly tilting read. If the above statement is true, this is a very incompetent team and/or software. Its more or less the same who has been around for years.

I have myself reported at least 20 crystal clear violations by everyday anglers/grimmers/table campers/waitlist spammers, only to see them the next day doing the exactly same thing over and over. I have been in touch with quite a few regs who are all stating the same: "We've reported, Stars is doing nothing". To give an example ITT I just spent two minutes browsing the lobby enabling me to grab three hands with a grimming legend (edited HHs, interesting parts highlighted):

#1

Table 'Neckar II' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Grimming legend ($400 in chips)
Seat 2: Weak player ($400 in chips)
Seat 3: Regular ($400 in chips)
Weak player: posts small blind $5
Regular: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Grimming legend: raises $10 to $20
Weak player: calls $15
Regular: calls $10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Grimming legend collected $158 from pot

#2 - another reg joins

Table 'Neckar II' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Grimming legend ($488 in chips)
Seat 2: Weak player ($330 in chips)
Seat 3: Reg #1 ($380 in chips)
Seat 4: Reg #2 ($200 in chips)
Reg #1: posts small blind $5
Reg #2: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Grimming legend: raises $10 to $20
Weak player: calls $20
Reg #1: raises $10 to $30
Reg #2: folds
Grimming legend: calls $10
Weak player: calls $10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Weak player collected $84 from pot

#3 - Grimming legend has played 2 hands without posting:

Table 'Neckar II' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: Weak player ($354 in chips)
Seat 3: Reg #1 ($340 in chips)
Seat 4: Reg #2 ($200 in chips)
Reg #2: posts small blind $5
Grimming legend: is sitting out
Weak player: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Reg #1: folds
Grimming legend leaves the table

What he does every single day is outright stealing. Quoting the above thread as I couldn't agree more

Grunching here, but just wanted to share the following thought:

I think that the biggest problem on Stars right now is actually regs who play incredibly slow. Rec players absolutely hate this. Rec players are usually playing 1-2 tables and like to play super fast (the same impatience that drives them to play over half their hands also makes them want to leave the game when some 10-tabling SNE grinder is taking 10+ secs/play). The rec players hate it even more when they leave the game to get away from this super slow SNE grinder, and said grinder just immediately joins their new table. There is no escape. I think this is a huge reason that rec players table hop so much and log off sooner than they otherwise would. Some of them may even decide to quit online poker because this is so damn annoying.

Super slow 10-tablers hurt everyone. We get less hands/hr. Rec players get pissed and leave. Stars makes less profit from the rake. And so on.

Perhaps a system could be put in place to punish these super slow multi-tablers. Or maybe a less abrasive angle would be to reward faster players.

But regardless, I think it is incredibly important for all of us to try to play reasonably fast. Thinking or sometimes making sure you don't give off a timing tell is fine, but just constantly playing super slow has to stop.

Oh, and don't mean to pick on SNE grinders or people who play lots of tables... plenty of you guys play very fast. But the ones who don't... wow... they can singlehandedly drop tables from 100 hand/hr to 70/hr on their own.

Finally, I am sure Stars is going to be like "We shortened the timers to speed things up, blah, blah, blah"... this obv hasn't stopped people from taking 10 secs/play in a game where most decisions are super easy and many top players play almost instantly every turn.

I think rewarding fast play would be a smart thing to do. Maybe in terms of a few extra VPP/FPPs per hour or something so that it doesnt become so visible for the rec-players.

Think that would be a win/win for almost everyone. More hands per hour, so more rake for PS (minus extra RB ofc, but just make the extra small enough to not offset the effect).
More hands and more profit for fast playing regs.
And more action per hour for the gamblers

Like it is now taking significant time each decision is like a money and mental freeroll for any given player at the expense of all the other players.

Absolutely this.

I've been going on about it for years. It looked like we made some progess last year when Stars said they would monitor a time to act statistic and reduce the number of tables for people who played too slowly (and raise the number for people who could hack it)

I dont know if anyone ever got sanctioned though some super slow players have disappeared. Whatever, it need to be pursued far more.

Wow, interesting Chez... Stars is absolutely not doing this anymore. I can think of 3 incredibly slow players who are probably among the top 5 slowest I have ever seen who continue to mess things up for everyone.

This is what pokerstarssteve said a while ago http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/96...l#post35644578

All increases in table caps and reductions/warnings are done solely based on average time to act and average number of tables played. We run a report each month and make changes to caps and send warnings based on the results.

We have been doing this since January; the only thing that has changed is that we have, over time, loosened the threshhold for both having your table cap increased and for receiving a warning or having your table cap reduced.

To be clear, no, time to act is not the only factor in raising/reducing your table limits. There are exactly two other factors:
1) Average number of tables played
2) Whether or not you've had a warning before

The motivation is to improve average time to act at tables. This works by:
1) Reducing presence of players who play too slowly, and helping them play more quickly by reducing the number of tables competing for their attention.
2) Motivating players to act more quickly if they desire to have a table cap increase.

I don't know what % of 24 tablers are winning players, before or after rakeback. If I knew, I wouldn't release the information anyways.

I have a question regarding waiting list times. Assume you are on a waiting list for a table and a seat opens up. You receive the pop up and click yes to join the table. You don't have auto-sit enabled. The table opens up, you see the table conditions and you decide you no longer want to sit at that table, so you close the table window without sitting down.

In this case, does the client immediately move on to the next person on the list? or does it count down the entire 60 seconds reserved for the player to join before it moves on the next person on the list?

If its the latter, I believe we could decrease waiting list times by a lot by moving to the former method.

Cool, good stuff. One problem I see, though, is that some people are slow because they play on multiple sites or are watching a movie or running some gay software, etc. So going by # of tables doesn't seem like a great idea to me. There are def some players who can 10-table LHE and play super fast.

Ya, if you decline the seat without auto-sit, it just waits the full minute. You can actually close the table you have your seat reserved at, and then repoen it 20 secs later and still take it.

And even if you do have auto-sit... if you just close the table without clicking on the seat, the same thing happens.

But this isn't slowing the games down. If anything, it is speeding things up by making them 5-handed for a bit.

It is, however, really stupid and should be fixed. It's def annoying when you first log on and are trying to get into games.

Most of the slow palyers are at many stars tables and it could easily stop that. Tough to do much about somone who 1 tables slowly or occasionally watch the gay porn but do these people exist?

the problem is now with stars. There is no excuse for the current slow play, they have the tools and the policy.

What are your thoughts on the suggestions/complaints that you've heard so far?

Over the past few years absolutely nothing has been done for LHE (Minus DN's cameo HU attempt) and the host of legitimate complaints are just echoed around this forum and have gotten worse at the tables.

1) Do you agree with the sentiments being posted in this thread?

2) What's going to be done about it?

Thanks for all the posts guys. I'll be back on Friday to address everything that's been brought up.

Sect7G & strixsr, in the meantime I will find your emails in our system and provide you with a thorough response.

I think this is an important issue, and very uncontroversial as well. Empty seats cause games to break.

I agree. There is also the issue of recreational players who aren't willing to game create and therefor use waiting lists. These players don't want to wait an extra 5 minutes before a game is available to them.

+1 The time to act upon taking a seat should be 15sec, not a minute. It's during that minute (or 5 minutes, since you let people try to jesus seat waitlists without penalty) that the game breaks.

FYP

Personally I would love waitlists to be abolished completely as most players don't use them as intended but as a jesus seating tool.

But a 15sec seat timer with a rolling 24hr declining cap would be great as well to combat abusers a little.

+1 to chez and ungarded as well. Less time to act Stars please!

And I believe waitlists are causing recreationals to look at the zoom or sitngo lobby for action. At 3/6 and up its more or less impossible to jump straight into a running game.

Always 5 players on a waitlist. Get rid of them or prevent players from looping.

I think you're all suggesting solutions that'll never make it.
They'll never force people to play. I think a waitinglist cap seems a more realistic solution.
I'd like a cut in wait-time too, but it might have some software issues, since that minute includes buying in atm. For us that's automatic, but for casual players they need to type in the amount they want on the table etc.
Maybe it's possible to get off the waitinglist if you hit leave?

That's a good point about the waitlist time might be built in so perhaps they can't change it.

An idea might be to have Stars watch the lobby manually and do something to the players that are continually abusing the waitlist feature fishing for jesus seats. Would take very little time and something would actually get accomplished. I'll wait for Nicks response to see if my opinion changes but we've been making these same complaints for years now and nothings been done.

I've moved my game to NL and satellites and had decent success. Unless you're a SNE I'd strongly advise looking at other options as there's a strong possibility that you could end up making more money elsewhere while paying Stars far less rake.

Since when a seat selection is the biggest sin and angle shooting on FLH?

Do you suggest that Stars make this top priority problem above:
1)dozens of tables with only 1 player sitting
2) players sitting out as soon as recreational player sits out
3) players sitting alone at 6max or FR tables and refusing specific opponents, 3handed play, buttoning etc

I do seat select, but when I open the table I always hit the "R" letter on my reserved seat. Then "no" if I don't like this seat. As soon as I hit "no", next player in line can take this seat.
by my observations most of players who seat select does this and it makes more sense - because then it is possible to join waiting list one more time.

This is called waitlist bumhunting.
You're a muppet if you think people like you are adding to the enjoyment of LHE. You are making the games so bad/slow that recs don't want to play. Have you ever wondered why there are so few recs playing lhe when this game is a logical first stop for an online player.

All 3 of your points should be cracked down on immediately. I could solve all of them in less then a day just by looking at the lobby. Fortunately Nick said he'd post his solutions today and have my 3 month old email responded to... oh wait.

In general, fish don't like empty seats. But a fish is never going to notice "waitlist bumhunting." The only problem is that it takes too long to refuse a seat after you've clicked "yes." If it didn't take that full minute, then a more willing regular in the rotation would get the seat before the game breaks.