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Old 03-30-2017, 01:30 PM   #176
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

To speak to the crack vs cocaine debate. The higher penalty for crack is still in the justice system today. In my jurisdiction having more than 5grams of crack is trafficking which carries a mandatory sentence of 10 years in prison. To get to that same sentencing range for cocaine you need to have more than 4 times that amount.

im not totally up to date on the federal sentencing figures since im a state prosecutor, but i believe it is even more exaggerated in federal court in the nature of something like 5 grams of crack equivalent to 100grams of cocaine for sentencing..

Eta- meth which is a significantly bigger problem in this community is at 20grams for trafficking as well as heroin.

Last edited by Slighted; 03-30-2017 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 01:34 PM   #177
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Is this guy at least an American trump voter this time...
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Old 03-30-2017, 02:59 PM   #178
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
LOL. You have not once, that I have seen, responded to the fact that the NC state legislature asked how black people voted and then specifically restricted those methods.
Of course I haven't responded to it - nobody has brought it up to me.
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:01 PM   #179
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slighted View Post
To speak to the crack vs cocaine debate. The higher penalty for crack is still in the justice system today. In my jurisdiction having more than 5grams of crack is trafficking which carries a mandatory sentence of 10 years in prison. To get to that same sentencing range for cocaine you need to have more than 4 times that amount.

im not totally up to date on the federal sentencing figures since im a state prosecutor, but i believe it is even more exaggerated in federal court in the nature of something like 5 grams of crack equivalent to 100grams of cocaine for sentencing..

Eta- meth which is a significantly bigger problem in this community is at 20grams for trafficking as well as heroin.
Aren't crack/cocaine worse for the body than meth and heroin - therefore making any weight vs punishment comparisons unfair?
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:04 PM   #180
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
Of course I haven't responded to it - nobody has brought it up to me.
False:

Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
And btw einbert left out the best reason for this law being racist, which is that the state legislature asked "hey what methods do black people use the most for voting" and then restricted those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
This is like asking someone to define pornography, which a SCOTUS justice famously declined to attempt because it's too difficult to come up with a broad, perfect definition. I'm fairly sure the NC legislature asking how black people vote and then restricting those methods qualifies, though!
You even responded to (and quoted) the second post! You are a dishonest liar.
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:18 PM   #181
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
False:

You even responded to (and quoted) the second post! You are a dishonest liar.
I was wrong. I did not remember those two posts. Easy on the personal attacks. Calling me a liar because of that is a bigger reach than calling voter ID laws racist.

If there was a politician who asked how a certain race voted then tried to find a way to prevent them from voting I would say he had racist intentions for a non-racist law. If a cop studied recent traffic violations in his city to see where one particular race was getting more speeding tickets than other races then set up around there and gave that race more speeding tickets I think you would agree that the cop had racist intentions, but having a speed limit isn't racist.

There are also racists who support minimum wage laws for racist reason. I assume you aren't ready to call the MW racist.
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:30 PM   #182
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

we're all very familiar with the conservative tactic of vacillating between "I didn't lie, I forgot" and "I know that's not true, I was kidding" when caught saying something awful ... You guys have been using it for decades.

And yes, voter ID laws absolutely are racist. And voter fraud is is essentially a nonexistent phenomenon, usually bullhorned by racists. Voter suppression, however... That's most definitely a thing.
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:41 PM   #183
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
If a cop studied recent traffic violations in his city to see where one particular race was getting more speeding tickets than other races then set up around there and gave that race more speeding tickets I think you would agree that the cop had racist intentions, but having a speed limit isn't racist.
Do you not see the difference here?

A politician is not a policeman. The policeman is enforcing a non-racist law in a racist way, in your example.

The politician, though, is not in the business of enforcement. He's in the business of making the laws. In this case he specifically crafted the law itself to be racist.
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:44 PM   #184
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

I mean for ****'s sake mickey, you're arguing poll taxes weren't racist. You're literally, at this point, saying that even laws drafted for racist reasons to target specific races are not, themselves, racist, as long as they don't explicitly mention race. It's incredible.
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:05 PM   #185
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by JiggsCasey View Post
And yes, voter ID laws absolutely are racist. And voter fraud is is essentially a nonexistent phenomenon, usually bullhorned by racists. Voter suppression, however... That's most definitely a thing.
Source that proves your claim that there is significantly more voter suppression than voter fraud in the US?
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:09 PM   #186
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
Do you not see the difference here?

A politician is not a policeman. The policeman is enforcing a non-racist law in a racist way, in your example.

The politician, though, is not in the business of enforcement. He's in the business of making the laws. In this case he specifically crafted the law itself to be racist.
The fact that one is creating law and one is executing law is irreverent.

There are many examples (I have posted sources 10+ times on 2+2) where politicians want to create or increase MW to hurt a minority. I assume you also believe MW laws are racist since some politicians "crafted" it because it hurt one race more than others?
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:17 PM   #187
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
The fact that one is creating law and one is executing law is irreverent.
Did you mean irrelevant? And no, it's not either of those things, your analogy doesn't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
There are many examples (I have posted sources 10+ times on 2+2) where politicians want to create or increase MW to hurt a minority. I assume you also believe MW laws are racist since some politicians "crafted" it because it hurt one race more than others?
Could you direct me to one of these?

Do you think poll tax laws were racist? Do you think segregation (or more specifically, laws mandating "separate but equal" facilities) was racist? Do you think anti-miscegenation laws (forbidding interracial marriage) were racist? I will answer your MW question (provided with a source) when you answer these.
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:17 PM   #188
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
Source that proves your claim that there is significantly more voter suppression than voter fraud in the US?
Quote:
When we compare overall turnout in states with strict ID laws to turnout in states without these laws, we find no significant difference. That pattern matches with most existing studies. But when we dig deeper and look specifically at racial and ethnic minority turnout, we see a significant drop in minority participation when and where these laws are implemented.

Hispanics are affected the most: Turnout is 7.1 percentage points lower in general elections and 5.3 points lower in primaries in strict ID states than it is in other states. Strict ID laws mean lower African American, Asian American and multiracial American turnout as well. White turnout is largely unaffected.

These laws have a disproportionate effect on minorities, which is exactly what you would expect given that members of racial and ethnic minorities are less apt to have valid photo ID.
So there is evidence that voter ID laws actually do suppress minority voting, not just hypothetically but in actual practice

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...-the-research/

Voter fraud percentages?

Quote:
To put this in perspective, the 31 incidents below come in the context of general, primary, special, and municipal elections from 2000 through 2014. In general and primary elections alone, more than*1 billion ballots*were cast in that period.
Keep in mind these are just reported incidents, not even convictions. Some of them could be just database mixups and the like.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.905a40200602

The issue is that when there is fraud it's usually done in ways that voter ID laws won't fix, but those voter fraud cases are used to justify voter ID.
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:54 PM   #189
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
Aren't crack/cocaine worse for the body than meth and heroin - therefore making any weight vs punishment comparisons unfair?
I don't really know the specifics nationwide, but personally I know several high functioning cocaine users that have professional jobs. I have never heard of a high functional professionally employed meth user.
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:00 PM   #190
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
Crack cocaine was a "black" drug and cocaine wasn't. Crack got hit with far harsher mandatory sentences under the Reagan administration based on a number of fictions. I imagine this is the Wikipedia page you landed on, if you read the "Sentencing disparity and effects" section it outlines the history.
There's a good reason crack received a harsher penalty, at least when the law was enacted, but the ratio should be like 1.3:1, not lolwtf 100:1 or even 18:1.

This is the insidiousness behind most institutionally racist laws, that there's a seed truth to them that's wildly blown out of proportion.

p.s. Also, another reason the stupid law was stupid was because dealers would sell uncut cocaine for buyers to freebase their own rocks.

Last edited by 5ive; 03-30-2017 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:01 PM   #191
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
I mean for ****'s sake mickey, you're arguing poll taxes weren't racist. You're literally, at this point, saying that even laws drafted for racist reasons to target specific races are not, themselves, racist, as long as they don't explicitly mention race. It's incredible.
Oh wait, is he? I was grunching. I'll show myself out.
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:05 PM   #192
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Oh wait, is he? I was grunching. I'll show myself out.
Well, read this and you tell me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
If there was a politician who asked how a certain race voted then tried to find a way to prevent them from voting I would say he had racist intentions for a non-racist law.
I don't see how you could call poll taxes racist under this logic. According to mickey, a law could:

- be crafted to specifically cause harm to a certain race or races
- AND be crafted to do so by people intending for the law to be racist

...and still not be a racist law!
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:25 PM   #193
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

It's just the conservative definition of racism vs the more liberal definition. The Conservative definition is that only express mentions of racial animosity are racist, other than that we cannot peer into the hearts of the person. Which is why bahbahmickey says the laws aren't racist, there's no explicit animosity of specific races written in the law itself. Likewise the person crafting the law can only be said to be racist if he explicitly says that animosity towards a certain race is the cause.

The definition is easy to game though. Just put one more step between the law and the intent and then the racism cannot be definitively proven and then we have to give the person the benefit of the doubt. (It's also easy to have a false positive and claim something is racist when it's not)

That happens with the 10 commandments on public property as well. Say you want the 10 commandments there because Christianity should be a part of the country, etc and the courts strike it down based on express promotion of religion by the government. Give it a thin secular veneer like say it's because they want to honor the history that the 10 commandments have played in American history and the courts will approve even though the sentiment behind it is the same and usually the people making the second claim are closely related to the first.

One problem is that our political parties are so racially segregated that voter ID works to harm one party instead of harming both equally.

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 03-30-2017 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:42 PM   #194
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

A tax on yarmulkes is a tax on little hats, no big deal.
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Old 03-30-2017, 07:54 PM   #195
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
Did you mean irrelevant? And no, it's not either of those things, your analogy doesn't work.



Could you direct me to one of these?

Do you think poll tax laws were racist? Do you think segregation (or more specifically, laws mandating "separate but equal" facilities) was racist? Do you think anti-miscegenation laws (forbidding interracial marriage) were racist? I will answer your MW question (provided with a source) when you answer these.
Goggle "minimum wage racist" and you will find plenty.

I think all the laws you ask about are racist with the exception of the poll tax. He poll tax is a terrible idea but I don't think it is racist (depending how much the tax is).
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Old 03-30-2017, 07:58 PM   #196
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
So there is evidence that voter ID laws actually do suppress minority voting, not just hypothetically but in actual practice

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...-the-research/

Voter fraud percentages?



Keep in mind these are just reported incidents, not even convictions. Some of them could be just database mixups and the like.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.905a40200602

The issue is that when there is fraud it's usually done in ways that voter ID laws won't fix, but those voter fraud cases are used to justify voter ID.
I don't have time to read your sources tonight hit needless to say reported voter fraud does not equal instances of voter fraud in the same way reported rapes doesn't equal the actual number of rapes.

There are a lot of factors that could result in lower minority turn out in some states than others. Blaming all or even a significant amount on voter ID laws is not right.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:00 PM   #197
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
Well, read this and you tell me:



I don't see how you could call poll taxes racist under this logic. According to mickey, a law could:

- be crafted to specifically cause harm to a certain race or races
- AND be crafted to do so by people intending for the law to be racist

...and still not be a racist law!
That isn't true.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:02 PM   #198
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
It's just the conservative definition of racism vs the more liberal definition. The Conservative definition is that only express mentions of racial animosity are racist, other than that we cannot peer into the hearts of the person. Which is why bahbahmickey says the laws aren't racist, there's no explicit animosity of specific races written in the law itself. Likewise the person crafting the law can only be said to be racist if he explicitly says that animosity towards a certain race is the cause.

The definition is easy to game though. Just put one more step between the law and the intent and then the racism cannot be definitively proven and then we have to give the person the benefit of the doubt. (It's also easy to have a false positive and claim something is racist when it's not)

That happens with the 10 commandments on public property as well. Say you want the 10 commandments there because Christianity should be a part of the country, etc and the courts strike it down based on express promotion of religion by the government. Give it a thin secular veneer like say it's because they want to honor the history that the 10 commandments have played in American history and the courts will approve even though the sentiment behind it is the same and usually the people making the second claim are closely related to the first.

One problem is that our political parties are so racially segregated that voter ID works to harm one party instead of harming both equally.
No, I do believe laws can be racist even if they don't mention a race. I just saying every law hurts one race more than others so saying a law is racist if it does is just saying every law is racist.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:44 PM   #199
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

LOL
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:56 PM   #200
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
Goggle "minimum wage racist" and you will find plenty.

I think all the laws you ask about are racist with the exception of the poll tax. He poll tax is a terrible idea but I don't think it is racist (depending how much the tax is).
Can you just point me to one you find to be credible? I don't want to waste any time with reading some article, arguing against it, and then later finding out that isn't the one you wanted me to see.

Given logic you've espoused here before, I don't see how you can think "separate but equal" is a racist law; it does not favor one race over another. Same with anti-miscegenation laws.

Obviously we (liberals) think those laws are racist, but that's using logic that you've expressly rejected thus far in this thread. What criteria do you use to label those laws as racist, but not others?
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