I'm actually with masque in terms of the value of the artifacts; they are truly priceless in terms of money and worth protecting. My point is you shouldn't voice suddenly getting up in arms about artifacts when people have been being killed this whole time.

The fact is Americans don't really care about Arabs killing each other. To be frank, I wouldn't care except for that I understand my government is largely responsible. I mean, if people halfway around the world want to shoot each other over how many angels can stand on a needle point I couldn't give less of a ****. But when my government engenders this mass killing, it's not right to suddenly perk up when objects are threatened. It makes us look like who we are, and we should really hide that at the moment because it's shameful and can only make things worse.

It's kind of like when a cute white girl goes missing and there is an impromptu mediathon orchestrated to be intensely interested in the girl's whereabouts. That in itself is a great thing. However if you looked at these mediathons you would get the impression that no one of color has ever been kidnapped or gone missing. And so these efforts, with noble intent, reveal a very ugly and racist society in which the majority don't value lives of people of color and ultimately serve to reinforce this sentiment within whites and its perception by people of color. Hence, these "where's Jessica?" style mediathons should not go on because implications gathered from the context entrench deep chasms of social division.

That's how it sounds to everyone, including you. If you want to pretend different then lol you.

'Enough is enough' should be firmly in the rear-view mirror of any moral person who is paying attention. It is in extremely bad taste to represent the destruction of valuable objects as the tipping point of rage when human beings have been killed, maimed, and made into starving refugees at the responsibility of your own government. It just confirms everything the militant Islamists are preaching about the racist and inhuman character of the West. It's counter productive to play into their hands like that.

Yes, just a small item against the array of our impacts across the region. If you are just completely clueless as to what's been going on in the ME and you look up to see priceless relics being wantonly destroyed and heads being lopped off for the crime of smoking cigarettes (or whatever else) then your viewpoint makes sense.

If you want to see real savagery you don't have to go farther than the closest mirror. It's ironic and not surprising that you would claim American barbarians would try to bring civilization to the birthplace of civilization with bombs, thievery, and and the systematic dismantling of social organization, including attempts at democratization. The level of irony is eye watering and nose bleeding to me. But not to you. You are like a trained astronaut, blasting off into the rarefied ignorance, beyond the moral atmospheres into the deep nihilist oblivion.

The point of you protesting about it is you taking responsibility for the actions of your own government. Taking such responsibility is implied in the philosophy of democratic government, though somehow U.S. citizens have become alienated from foreign policy. Nevertheless, it's still your government's policies and your responsibility to be aware of what they are and what they do and, if you don't think them just, try to change them in whatever little way you can. The ruins in question have been preserved for thousands of years previous to our foray into the region btw.


It seems like you have the ideals correct but fail massively in terms of evaluating reality. What are the actual, operational values of our culture as experienced by the ME? Honestly answering this question is a good place to start evaluating reality.


I can sign on to most of the sentiments of your bloviating, excepting that which holds the West as the morally superior beings. The ancient ruins might be more important than some amount of currently existing human life. However, this is not the time for that argument to be made. If you really want to represent the stated values of the West as oppose the real, ugly ones, then ignore the ruins and focus on the people. If we had been doing that this whole time the ruins would be in no danger.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. It sounds that way to you bec it fits nicely into the template w/ which you view so many things. Break the template and you are lost in the world which is why it's virtually impossible to converse w/ you. You're close minded to an incredible degree.

And if not for the West's morally superior beings nobody would be talking about this or the people. The West is the only force capable of effective intervention and it appears to me that 'The West' is sick of these beasts. And IDK how you can tell somebody else when enough is enough. You may not like it but it's subjective. I hit my personal 'enough' a long time ago and I watch what's going on w/ revulsion tempered w/ the knowledge that there's nothing to be done except hope for some strong men to arise and quash the mayhem bec his mayhem will be the lesser.

OP Masque if you are so butt hurt over destruction of artifacts and if you really hate ISIS, then join the military instead of being a keyboard wizard. Im done with this thread GG

Good riddance, you wont be missed with that attitude to paint people in the most convenient cynical manner. Ask deuces to give you his attitude too to take with you. Go find another place that will be counting the minutes to miss you with this apathy of yours and your cheap criticism. Just know that laziness like yours is how it all starts.


Is the US military passing invitations to non US citizens residents about joining them to go there and liberate the people from the savages in an effective campaign (either as direct military or technology designers) that will do the job like we mean business instead of becoming another daily ritual of random IDE strikes every day? If it does count me in as these mfers dare to put L in their name and do the purging they do like the gutless thugs they are.

Talk is cheap, but talking properly about what must be done is the beginning and apathy is neither cheap nor expansive, its the attitude that generates the problem. So if you are done with this thread good bye, keep not caring but look around you a little bit and not think your indifference/cynicism will protect you from what is coming. Go back to other threads about who is the worse poster, worse moderator or buttermilk trollboy. I bet cheap amusement not politics current world affairs thinking is what took you here. Be sure that with this attitude we will be soon enough all of us away from keyboards.

Yes deuces conveniently assumes whatever fits to his preconceived notion of people. I hit mine probably last summer when i saw the first beheadings and how they treated prisoners. This thread was about trying to put some content to this forum that is actual politics and world affairs about a hard real shame issue.

But i was frustrated with Syrian civil war and similar vicious acts reporting even earlier and have posts about it last summer also in politics. Makes you wonder what the plan is really for? Such barbaric demonstration of evil is only serving the purpose to scare opponents (hence the running of soldiers etc) or to pick a fight with US and others. If not it simply shows what kind of monsters are out there and what civil war does to a place. The fact is everywhere law is gone, people often become unrecognizable animals if they have no real culture inside them, because all that is left is the fear others have of you. Its the only defense, the only thing that postpones the inevitable ending of such torturous existence. People that become animals that slaughter others and their own soul while waiting their own death to end the madness.

This is what our monuments is all about. The rise above that state. It is missed on modern humans how close we actually are to that animal.

I say let ISIS keep their tiny little piece of land in Syria/Iraq and just contain them, that seems to be the best viable solution. Crazies gonna crazy, so just give them their own country where they can do as they please, as long as they are contained and cant pose a threat.

Who are we to say what is morally correct or what is wrong in this world. The people living in Syria/Iraq have their own view of the world and we shouldnt tell them what to do. Its so ingrained in their society/ideology that you cannot defeat it with bombs and bullets. Let them be and just contain them.

Welcome back BVB Dortmund and here's hoping to stay more if we are to talk in this tone that is much better.

People dislike my long posts but what you said deserves some excessive analysis to show why its not as simple. I will hope this motivates some civil discussion later.


Look clearly in principle i dont have a problem with (but i severely dislike no doubt) someone that wants to install a severe backwards marching Sharia law and other extreme ideologies in a land that others like them exist that approve this system and do not pose a threat to the world community as part of their structure and operations and where no human crimes like those witnessed are taking place that add up to genocide/religious/political purging etc.

Saudi Arabia for example is such extreme place in many ways. I see some difference between a theocratic leadership system and a royal family strict Sunni system though moreover how extreme both are in their customs and laws. They are both extreme and oppressive in many ways but at least one of them you can talk with more rationally and has elements of modernity that potentially can bring change to its internal extremes over time. Average population quality of life metrics are also different. Its very hard to talk to a theocratic absolute intolerant radical system.

However is this what we have here? Is this what they are building? And is this a little land involving many different not at all radical, rest of world hating people, or is it an area larger than Germany in principle (The Syrian and Iraqi parts they "control" or terrorize is close to the area of Germany over 300k km^2) and if you include their plans for Libya and even southern Balkans, Turkey, Nigeria under design (in the term ISIL, L refers to Levant - this is why i insist calling them ISIS because ISIL is what they want to become which is inspired by this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) then maybe you are talking about over 1mil km^2 area of unreal potential extremism under control.

Inside this controlled area you can imagine what can happen to make pre 2001 Taliban controlled Afghanistan or modern Waziristan (Tribal area) in Pakistan much less impressive in principle as centers of radicalization and terrorists groups training/operation.

I have no doubt that talking about Turkey,Egypt, Libya, Nigeria or even the funny looking concepts of southern eastern European coastline in their greater Levant and Caliphate plans is kind of insulting to these people and their ability to use their military like they mean business if needed (something not done since ww2 though). Infiltration of these communities by radicals trained in current ISIS controlled regions though is very possible. Certainly the situation in Libya and a fraction of Nigeria and whatever else they can gain infiltrating Turkey and Egypt with groups to create instabilities there too (because radical Muslims are minority but still plenty in these more secular countries, you know waiting opportunity) is not to be ridiculed (borders are very porous too) and ignored because its their next step if they can survive the coalition air strikes and any future troops on the ground development or local opposition and gain further prestige and fear.

Their plan (and the original Bin Laden plan for an Islamic Superpower across many time zones) is for a much greater area than 1.5 mil km^2 (comparable to Germany, France and Spain added up) if allowed to gain strength and attract all radicals from the rest of the world to join them. They have about 30k to even 100k "soldiers" right now with more likely some number less than 40-50k dependable military.

They are of course 50k with nothing to lose, unlike regular armies that have family, a personal life and a dependable society to go back to where they belong. If you allow the 50k to gain even more weapons with various means they finance themselves and to continue to steal weapons from Iraqi and Syrian army that give up the fight unsupported or unmotivated or in profound fear, you create a big problem for regular army later if we get there. Because they will operate as potent insurgency and establish permanent rebel ambush/IDEs style activities hitting your personnel/army every day they can prolonging the mess.

With asymmetric warfare in place, aided by significant high technology weapons and their lack of fear to die or the terrain on occasion helping them or even while shielded by innocent civilians, it gets tough and ugly to deal with. This makes the 50k and whatever eventually bigger number they can generate a respectable opponent because its not an organized localizable army you can attack, defeat, arrest and be done with. If allowed to they can rally this number a lot in a variety of ways as well with their propaganda and further funding as long as they are winning land and resources or surviving air harassment.

In a traditional war soldiers go back to their homes and lives. Where are these people going here? They will never give up. This must not become a problem where you are no longer fighting worldwide the radicals but their population growth! A big radical state that exports its radicalization methods is the beginning of such greater problem. Any day you allow them to expand underestimating their plans they get closer to that possibility.

If you allow such system and their extremism that hates all others persist and establish itself economically, completely purging all local opponents, imagine what they can do in there and how well they can train thousands to come out and attack the rest of the planet's major cities. It is a failed state that you allowed to establish itself a barbaric regime ready to recoup and expand further and spread intolerance and radicalization worldwide. It gets closer to a religious war eventually too (as more are involved from different countries - imagine a destabilization of Libya, Egypt, the failure in Yemen etc) exactly as Bin Laden dreamed (as a way to establish eventually the Islamic superpower).

It must never become that. This is why secular muslim countries need to see this as their own problem more than the rest of the planet's. Islam must fight for its own character here. It should have been unacceptable for Islam worldwide to witness what is happening and not protest dramatically about its methods.

You know a system that doesnt value human life and has modern technology and science available to it, significant funding in place and totalitarian control of the people living there can create unreal problems for the rest of the planet (in the era of high technology), because they continue to be radical with little to lose and see as Islam a religion of war and expansion (which is not far from the original idea though, lets not lie in order to remain politically correct, pretending Islam has a clear ethical past that is not historically worse and more intolerant than all other major religions).

And of course not to ignore the fact that many wont see as important but i see it as seriously significant at a symbolic and cultural level ie the destruction of cultural heritage sites that do not belong to them and do not belong even to the people living there now or until now. They belong to the entire planet. It is our collective history.


Their horrific character is revealed daily. When they entered Palmyra for example they purged locals that some of their neighbors or local ISIS members knew were against them. They chopped heads and executed in others ways many people. Others, that could, fled before it fell. This has happened in almost all areas they have taken. They are not invited there by the people (in some revolt against the western or Iraqi or Sysian governments), that then are happy with what develops. There is Sunni population in these areas that no doubt disliked their treatment by the Shia dominated Iraqi governments post 2003 and the restrictions and violence against past Ba'ath party members and Sunnis in general that were the minority in Iraq. Shias the majority in the old standard Iraq belong to the same Islamic branch like the vast majority of Iranian Muslims. 90% of the muslims worldwide are Sunni though. There is long historical animosity between Shias and Sunnis that the current events build on. But there was nowhere a broad endorsement by all Sunnis of that occupied/terrorized area that the behavior exhibited by ISIS is what they want to see, what expresses them. It is true of course that they are not exactly totally unhappy to see Shias and other local minorities suffer given what happened to them the past decade say (which clearly doesnt come anywhere near that but it was still a failed post 2003 invasion unreasonable approach against the future unity of Iraq.)

So they are creating a place for them out of a region that many different people of various political positions and levels of moderation or extremism existed. Standard civil war style purging that gets real ugly without any leaders to guide the masses to some more reasonable albeit still violent approach that respects some basic human rights of prisoners etc until someone wins. Civil wars get ugly. I have seen images of chopped heads in records even in the Greek civil war that i couldn't believe when i first saw given how far from this the society has moved since (but left/right divisions persist very deeply and all this stems from WW2 German occupation that destroyed society and gave rise to severe division between conservatives, communists and those that formed occupied governments and collaborated with the Nazis).

When a superpower invades a place that people have some internal division on political or religious or ethnic grounds, instability develops in the place and often leads to civil war eventually after the superpower is out. It is classic like clockwork standard pattern. This is i why the US role in all this mess is unimaginably ridiculous in design. Have no doubt though that the local culture/religion and leaders are 10x worse than any US general or other people behind the scenes however inept (with the exception of those that had criminal unethical involvement possibly at the top 5 level of the Bush administration).

Obama then had to do an 180 and followed a path that didnt help exactly either eventually. All this could have been anticipated. The proper behavior would have been to immediately offer amnesty to all Iraqi Sunnis that were not in key Ba'ath leadership war crimes involved positions and recover the x-military and many others to the future Iraqi governments and armies in key positions moreover the fact that the elections would have always favored as winners Shia dominated parties (more Shias than Sunnis in Iraq). This is what someone that wants to unite and maintain peace in the new system does. It would have reduced the insurgency to manageable levels and would have left the country united after the US left. Instead it was again allowed for religion to screw things up. Go back to how it all started after 2003 and see what i mean (Shia leaders then Al Qaeda/Sunnis insurgency etc).

Have no doubt that these extremists need to be stopped and this doesnt mean that establishing a properly governed Sunni nation in a fraction of Iraq and maybe even Syria (if this means end of hostilities) isnt a viable solution if original local people hate each other so much to be unable to unite as Syrians or Iraqis. Do not ignore the reality though that many people had land/homes there and ran away from it or lost relatives to executions. Why should these people write off their past lives there? It is unacceptable and amazingly insulting to the world community to see this as ok $@#% happens. No it must not be allowed to establish itself this way. Otherwise we are all worthless observers of evil in action thinking that its just fine to have 3-5 mil+ refuges in Europe writing off their homeland.

These refuges by the way definitely will (and do already) bring more Islam to Europe, even if only a fraction of them radical (and mostly poor tortured souls and kids that deserve proper help). This is not a great development by the way eventually down the road if not done right.

Now i will proceed to appear Islamophobic or conservative because xenophobes and right wing radicals and pure racists share a dislike of such development (but not for the proper reasons). But i am not that. I am pro science and free thinking, tolerant of diversity and supporter of rational organization of society and therefore Islam and other religions are my natural irrational opponents when they want to have a prominent role in what happens. I dislike their expansion (invasive religions) and essential infiltration of more rational societies that sacrificed a lot over the past to get rid of their own religious dogmatic controlled oligarchic systems and embraced an age of reason and further freedoms.


This is not racism or xenophobia on my part. Local western communities have also their own problems already to deal with and they cannot be seen as superior (as systems) in every possible sense and often not even in metrics that have to do with human happiness and ethics. It is an inevitable further down the road consequence of what ISIS is doing though. I respect immigration and embrace chased unfortunate people, i am ok with noninvasive nature religious freedom and i salute their potential to assimilate and maintain their cultural identity in a non invasive secular manner among other people originally born there, enriching local culture not treating it with hostility. It is a modern reality. But that initial phase of introduction will pass and if the next steps are not proper and the local community is not financially secure and prosperous enough problems will emerge eventually (some of them due to racism too). Wherever Islam expands and is treated as something stronger than prior cultural heritage, (lets say similar to how most near secular Christians behave that are not openly religious or very traditional in an imposing manner) new centers of extremism emerge eventually and the old fashioned behavior and lack of financial prosperity of many in the community alienates them and makes the locals dislike them creating eventually, even if originally good intended, centers of new radicalization. Immigration must be done properly not without design and care for the consequences and the prosperity of all involved. Otherwise racism and intolerance on both sides will develop. It is what supported ISIS too.

Exactly where and why do you think ISIS is getting all this support from the rest of the world? Where are these people radicalized but in mosques and communities that are mistreated by locals because of their expressive/invasive religious resistive to secularization character. Who are these people in the west that join ISIS and their crimes? We created these people and their own inability to secularize/modernize themselves and evolve their ideals to more civilized/open minded ones. Economic misfortune contributed too.


The possible solution to this madness?

1) ISIS must be stopped militarily hopefully by a united powerful substantial numbers army by many countries and defeated/dismantled as a system. (even if you add Russia and Iran in some role - a bit tough and far out but saying anyway- in it, so be it, for symbolic international credibility cooperation reasons with further potential positive side benefits world wide later)

2) Assad must fall or propose a way to use the international community to get back control of the Syrian state. Can an alternative that is not extremist emerge in Syria? It seems everywhere a dictator falls a can of worms opens if the society is not treated to a proper unity government that will protect all minorities and sects.

3) Local people need to recover their properties, governing their cities and controlling police and army forces.

4) Either the communities are respected and embraced by Iraq or Syria post civil war and participate in the government in a way that doesnt create animosities or a new Sunni state has to be created that is not radical.

5) Any refuges that want to return must be allowed to get back to their land. Those that stay in Europe they need to be properly financially assisted to get places to stay and find reasonable jobs so that they can assimilate to the community and find a new home they can love. All these need to be respected and they need to maintain Islam as their cultural heritage if they want but they need to also modernize themselves and understand why Sharia type systems are unreasonable and eventually transition out of traditional religion in time (next generations) or at least reject any attempt to get radicalized and come in conflict with local communities to create further animosity and racism.

6) The west needs to continue to show a more reasonable fair and balanced face to the world in relation to muslim countries and must be very careful in terms of military campaigns that can have potential civilian victims. Any military scandals and abuse of prisoners is out of the question.

Now this talk may have started due to destruction of historical heritage sites but clearly my focus in much larger and i was hoping it is those things we could eventually discuss motivated by what these sites mean. If these sites ever meant something important for us is to remind us that culture, respect of order and ideals and proper treatment of each other with care and effort to understand our differences (look how much effort and care is vividly survived in all these artifacts and architecture) is what allows us to continue to build a better world for all. To allow their destruction without these events uniting us against the barbarians is another failure for all to be added to the already realized and continuing human failure. I invite everyone to imagine the fear of a family that has a home and some land when ISIS is closing on in their city and they know that their males may be executed and their females used for slaves or worse and all their belongings will be taken. So yes ISIS first takes people and homes and then takes their cultural heritage too. What else is needed to happen for us to do something about it?

Have any of you considered the possibility that the Qu'ran is the one true word of God and that he has instructed us to demolish any forms of idolatry which might rival his name?

Because that's what these people believe.

Thread is a ****ing joke, right?

Not going to say anymore to this travesty, except that you sheeple must be brainwashed harder than anyone else, if you thing "destruction of art" is of any importance, compared to what else happens. You stupid sheeple simply exactly do what terrorists want of you .You give a **** about this ****.

Mindblowing stupidity of this OP. Must be trolling, I think. Noone can be that stupid

fwiw they probably wont just smash everything: a non-negligible part of their funding comes from pillaging historical sites and selling antiques on the black market:
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/201...-antique-trade

they like posting youtubes of themselves breaking statues, but overall they seem to value money above God's order to destroy all the idols.

It's exactly the stained sheets analogy I brought up before. Anyone can see the comparison being implied by sudden outrage over things while people have been being killed the whole time. I'm only assuming that you are a semi cognitively functioning human being when I say that you understand the implications.

I guess one reason the U.S. military "doesn't do body counts" is so that people like you can credibly feign ignorance as to who the real beasts are. If you want to know, introduce yourself to a mirror.

As to the West being the only force capable of effective intervention...lol the thing is, I am convinced you truly believe this. It's sad that my linking to a brief history of the Iraq war is not the equivalent of rubbing your nose in your own ****, because that is exactly what I would (metaphorically) do if your brainwashing wasn't invulnerable to common sense or all known intellectual smelling salts. No outline of history, admissions of high level planners, or photos of blown up children can deter your ingrained beliefs about the U.S. military as some kind of solution to anything. In obvious truth, our intervention and our decades long support of the Saudi royals is what has directly led to ISIS- and yet you think more U.S. intervention is the solution.

In the end you are no different, whatsoever, than the ISIS death squads. Well, there is one difference in that you (and masque) are too pussy to do your own dirt.

It seems pretty well understood that people are immunised against large numbers of people dying. It's why fundraising tries to focus donors on an individual portrait rather than a crowd scene. This isn't correct but I also think it's somewhat hypocritical to accuse Masque when we live in a world where approximately 40,000 people die every day because they are poor.

If masque is guilty of prioritising crimes against property over crimes against people we are also guilty of prioritising our property over other peoples lives.

This isn't to say I support his call for increased western involvement I don't but I don't want them intervening on peoples behalf or to protect these antiquities.

lI've only skimmed masque's posts if there is anything obviously horrendous in it I reserve the right to walk this back.

It should definitely take priority over the people they're burning alive, raping and beheading anyway...

And w/ this you confirm my conviction that you can think no other way. Absolutely pathetic.

And you know that how exactly? Because of my long history of not caring or helping people and choosing the easy way out? I suggest you go f&%% yourself and your attitude that you are going to compare us with a mfer that will hold a helpless guy that inside is praying to find some last mercy, a droplet of humanity in his opponents' cold eyes, video tape him and then cut his head like an animal. And to have him even for days know that this is his fate next week or whatever. I hate the process even for the animal (back in a village but at least they eat it and feed their family) and i would prefer a fast bullet than the slower more painful cutting the head process where the last thing that stays with you is how far gone the enemy is that they hate you so much and humanity in totality (and your innocent parents or wife seeing this) when you have done nothing to them and you have been a health worker or something like that helping poor people and they are so happy to do that to you because these super m/fers are not gutsy or smart enough to go and attack soldiers or politicians or anyone remotely responsible for what they perceive as crimes against muslims.

They do that even to other muslims. In fact most of their victims are muslims. And i hold as losers and total scum all the high clergy of Islam that do not find the elementary courage to come out and declare in all possible media that they curse the souls (and Mohammed is against it) of anyone who kills innocent civilians and unarmed people like that and do not keep them prisoners (i would do the same for Pope or an Orthodox Patriarch etc if silent if today christians anywhere were chopping heads of unarmed people and videotaping it). But what do you expect really from gutless punks and the mental fathers that made them and keep the masses angry and fighting each other instead of uniting them.

And you dare compare us to these bastards? How the fack you dare you pathetic person? And how exactly you are not temp banned for this yet? Did i ever say anything so vile to you? Even now i am not saying that to you. I refuse to see you as so horrible as these monsters. Nowhere near. Just some guy that has lost touch with a sense of proper behavior. Exactly how you decide that if i were a pilot in a helicopter or a machine gun guy or someone in a remote controlled drone facility i would actually shoot a van full of civilians or kids or that i would feel afraid to not obey an order that i see kills people that did nothing because it is convenient for me to strike. Why the f%^% do you know that if i was president of US i wouldn't make it a rule every time civilians are killed in a place because of military errors i would build a school there and fund it with top technology to remind everyone that i cannot find another way to redeem myself but by investing in the future of their kids. And exactly who uses civilians for shields? Did the US military ever do that to shield themselves when slaughtered?

How do you know any of this wont be me? How do you know that if my country (Greece) asks me i wont go to die for freedom if there is no other way i can survive and fight another day and win something more than that moment offers. My ancestors have always chosen freedom and the protection of greater causes than themselves or death. Study some Greek History to see how many cases exist and what kind of person you are possibly insulting. And i would be different than my childhood examples? If i am different i would have given signs to all here with my behavior that i conveniently evade the effort to help where i can help, i would be selfish and exploitive of others. Give me such an example in my posting history.

So screw you and your pathetic loser attitude.

Is the US the main problem? Far from it. The US does what a f**%^ng superpower does to preserve control over loser countries that cannot find a way to defend themselves better because they are loser enough to not understand elementary game theory and on top of that remain divided too among themsleves. US is digging in effect its own grave by not taking the high road and investing in a better approach for sure (opportunity loss) but i can assure you its a lot better than most prior world powers in history that were in similar strength arrogant position over others. Keep believing lies that the majority of the civilian victims are from US military and not each other or that there is no blame to those that make possible such killings by shielding themselves in such locations. These pieces of scum wouldn't know what a true warrior with honor is all about even if their mothers themselves showed them. They are a disgrace for any past Muslim scientist, author, architect and other wise great personality in their history. Their own people (Sunnis) do not deserve such representation as what seen on these tapes.

How hard was it for losers Iraqis to take the chance that Saddam and his pathetic regime was out (even as a perverse invasion mistake) to unite and have today a super modern country exporting oil at nice income rates (they are like the 2nd or 3rd top reserve of oil worldwide) and investing the profits to solar power and all kinds of new technology, desalination to change their deserts, you name it, all kinds of projects to give people jobs, to improve their youth, to educate them and make them top scientists and engineers and become a great place to live. Yes 12 years later and its not enough. How hard was it to see your opponent as Iraqi, same as you and offer your hand to do something together instead of simply changing what side was the boss.

How hard was it for these losers after their elections to put aside their differences and invite 30-40% of the cabinet to be Sunnis and to make sure all Iraqis are treated with dignity? And how tough is it for these soldiers to not run but keep their posts and if they have to run to detonate all their equipment (not leave it back) and defend their homeland against monsters that chopped the heads of their brothers and if they have to be captured use the last bullet on themselves.

How hard is it if you have to run to then regroup and get a new weapon and new friends and go back and fight to recapture what you ran from, to run only in order to fight another day if you ever run.

How hard is to do all these simple things that make your world better and resist to this cruelty?

And your simplistic pathetic polemic attitude here is in fact the reason there is problem worldwide. People like you that cannot give their hand to the other side is why there is war and there is so much loss. I give you openings to talk to me kindly and you do this insult. Couldn't you find anything worse at that moment. Was how to hurt the dignity of people that did nothing to you the top priority? And we are the gutless?

Shame on you and those that made you like that. You can still change. Do it. You owe it to your parents.

^^What a huge pile of crap you made there...No wonder, after having seen that atrocious OP...

And while I intend to not be racist... You are a Greek... and now immigrated in the USA... Combined with what you wrote in the OP and this thread so far...
I better leave this thread right now, since I need my account on here...

Also people need to understand something important here. I never claimed the ruins are more important of a reason to enter the ground war than the people. You enter for people you save people and ruins at once. I was asking why the F%$ the US is not doing something about ISIS since last summer in politics threads. And i am liberal in my politics in case you may think i am taking some pro republican strike Obama any way you can line. And seriously opposite to 2003 invasion like very few back then.

Unlike the people though that are in a civil war the ruins belong to all mankind and even the unborn ones (their potential cultural value in their ability to create/inspire a world, collectively with all other records, that will not have such wars is significant enough to even potentially be able to eclipse many human lives - or their effect to the same cause at least - given the horrible priorities state our world has today, but which is better than 1000 years ago precisely because of our evolving culture). This is just a reality of our world not the way it should be of course. A culture must value people always over any material thing if a choice is to be made (unless you have a case that the material thing benefits more people eventually than the people themselves risked whenever such argument has merit eg you would choose rare medicine over people if it can save more than those that die now).

They have survived for thousands of years and are an insult to destroy them to the entire civilized community. It would be an entry opportunity (call it excuse, given Syrian position) to put some ground forces there and then take it from there for more action and defensive role. You need to understand that putting people in Syria is an invasion of their sovereignty. Syria didnt ask anyone to come and end this. Syrian and Iraqi governments are the real losers here because they should have asked for help from all countries to stop the killing of their own people. But of course Assad cares only about himself and his friends/regime.

Anyone who sees this thread as sign i dont care for people is terrible given that i have only recent posting history here and the topic was in the news the day i made the thread. I simply added a thread worthy of a politics forum among dozens of threads that have as purpose to strike each other with insults. Where is the investigative power of the people that look back in the posting history of a person to find bad things? It is never here for the correct ones that show the true care of a person long before.

1 year ago almost;


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0&postcount=35

Oh yeah because i couldn't have immigrated for science reasons?

In order to analogize to this situation, our government would need to have deep complicity in those deaths and masque and Beale would have to just openly ignore that and spout of the propaganda about noble intents they have been fed regarding why we do what we do.

I mean, we are totally supporting a government which chops off more heads than ISIS (and for sorcery ffs) and the guy is just pointing the finger outward and referring to the people as "beasts"? Not to mention everything else we have done. Not to mention everything else the Saudis do, like violently squash regional populists movements. ISIS is willing to kill for allah or the koran or whatever, masque is willing to kill for money. What's the difference?

I would vote for a presidential candidate running on a destroy the monuments platform.

Washingtom monument, Lincoln memorial, Mount Rushmore...getem outa here.

Deut 7:5 “But thus you shall do to them: you shall tear down their altars, and smash their sacred pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire.

Deut 12:2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: 3And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.

Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.


edit - and the statue of liberty too

Your government does that and far worse. When you refuse to acknowledge that and opt to support your government in those efforts you are just as bad as ISIS or worse. At least the ISIS dude has to watch what he is doing and own the appalling aftermath. We bomb people by remote control and let others deal with cleaning up the guts of their family members while we vicariously participate in sanitized, removed conversations about how cool our new F16 looks.

You, and the millions like you, and ISIS, are a plague of ****ing maggots on humanity. You've got the same ****ing genes- I know it.

Kill for money? Are you that high or drunk right now? Evidence of that? Hint even? 1% probability potential hope for it being true based in some evidence? Are you that irrational?

Lets count how many heads the Saudis chopped recent years and for what reasons and compare with Isis? Should we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital...n_Saudi_Arabia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic...and_the_Levant

(look under Religious and minority group persecution and under Human rights abuse and war crime findings)


Then compare maybe 100 some of which murderers ( i am against death penalty but clearly to kill a murderer and a random civilian are 2 different things) vs thousands by ISIS this year and last. In case you are that clueless ISIS doesnt chop heads of only those they video tape. They do that in every village they have opponents captured and even simple people that are different sects and they are purging. You are a total goner man or mega troll. Real shame.

And screw you if you remotely think i support what Saudi Arabia is doing to people. I do not ever wish to visit that country given what they do to people for even minor crimes or objectionable crimes and given how easy it would be to be set up or whatever over bs accusations by no doubt guys exactly like you apparently since you accuse out of your ass with no evidence.


Where are my cool F16 discussions by the way or way more appropriate current versions and not 25 years ago ones. You have no idea what you are talking about and imagining things. I have consistently criticized the over 0.6 tril $ defense budget vs other things.

You sir are a big time liar and a shame for 2+2.

If you do not take back what vile things you have said about me and any other in this thread without any evidence i will report all your posts. But i will give you a chance first.


PS: On my link about ISIS above one can see by the way a few Islamic clerics that have come out against ISIS, although a more coordinated global movement of clerics is what i had in mind to be able to mean something very tangible as a uniform condemnation across countries by the highest clerics. So credit where its due to those that did but more is needed. There are some of them though that have accused the west and others for being behind ISIS to undermine Islam's image. That is another ridiculous claim that shows how bad some mentalities about the west and Islam are and how the public is kept angry by some clerics. Have no doubt that many have been also radicalized by clerics. I can only imagine how tough it must be for a good Islamic cleric to see what is going on everywhere because i am sure there are such decent exceptional religious people too that do not forget what the true meaning of any religion should be if one should ever have one anyway.

You think so? I'm not so sure. I think that the killing over a million Iraqis over oil by a bunch of fat ****s whose vapid consumer culture is itself consuming the world's environment and who are filled with nothing but hate and pride while they destroy the world pretty much ensures that no one can forget how close humans are to the animal.

10,000 years from now what is going to be cherished and protected from our culture? A Britteny Spheres CD? a drone aircraft? a section of urban sprawl?