If I thought Jiggs knew the difference between blame and responsibility I'd play that game with him, but I don't think he is that clever. Regardless, I'm not all that interested in trying to figure out just how responsible the ~150 people murdered in Paris where for their own deaths, it is a bit craven.

Who woulda thunk peak earl caused the Paris attack?

I was considering more generally the foreign policy of the West (and Russia) over a much longer period. It's far to complicated to pick the direct causes but the whole thing is a mess which 'we' did so much to help create.

I must have missed him holding those 150 people responsible but whatever.

I'm not gettign involved in peak oil but oil is definitely an issue. Apart from anything else ISIS according to the FT makes $1.5m a day from selling oil.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/b8234932-7...#axzz3sKdkikVZ

Extremists are exploitable by all sorts of people with a variety of motives. I'll say they are each responsible for their choices, whether they accept that or, are ignorant of it, or pass the buck, or whatever.

I think it is realistic that the next of kin of people who have had drones and bombs dropped on them might come looking for revenge across generations and would have no trouble exploiting religious zealots towards those ends. It works both ways. Zealots can also exploit the sentiments of revenge or anger that come from having a person having their home bombed.

He didn't... at all. That's just our horrible moderator desperately straw-manning in an effort to deflect away from the fact that he can't bring himself to accept any Western blame.

What % would you say is the blame that lies with the Afghani people/ME for the attacks on their country after 9/11 ?

assuming this is for me... do you mean the civilians, or the existing Taliban government at the time?

So what you are saying is most of euro is still xenophobic racists like you?

Unfortunately he's probably right.

I was actually going for both.
WORDS.

I only mentioned two actual facts in my post and the rest was an honestopinion which are hardly disputable so Im not sure why I wouldn't be.

Actually, America invented American English not any idiot Euros. Also when you spew hateful racist vile the responsibility is yours to provide evidence to support your argument.

I don't think much of American English.

Would you like to specify what you consider hateful and racist in Yakmelk's post? If it is the claim that immigration is a net negative then I disagree buthe isn't being clear as to what immigration he is talking about. Clearly our responsibility to refugee's is not and should not be motivated by how it helps the receiving country. He's also admitted that stopping all immigration is the wrong solution.

Surely England can take some of the blame for American English.

Whatever dude. His post was 100% western centric and therefore wrong. Not because the west is inherently wrong (by virtue of being western), but because they ARE wrong (by virtue of being wrong). People complaining that they have lost 300 lives as a cost for plentiful eastern indentured servants are, in fact, wrong. Also terrorists are not a function of immigration, but a function of aggression from the west. This is obvious via looking at a history book, wikipedia or youtubze...

I don't know what point you think you are making. I don't know how you can infer from this post that he thinks that terrorism is a function of immigration.

What he seems to be saying is that accepting refugees (I'm assuming this is the current immigration to which he's referring) is a net negative. If he is speaking in economic terms he may be correct, I don't know what figures he has for this but I don't care. I think we should be taking more refugees irrespective of any economic benefit.

He is also saying that the current rules of freedom of travel throughout the Schengen area along with the arrival of refugees means that the current set up is unable to prevent terrorists moving freely within the EU, that seems correct, this may mean we need to do better in actually identifying people known to be dangerous. He admits that not letting in immigrants is only a partial solution and not one he supports. So what is your objection.

Personally I disagree that immigration will prove to be a net negative and I don't think the arrival of terrorists among the refugees present anything like the problem domestic terrorists do. The few that may enter from Syria pale in comparison to the terrorists we've allowed / are allowing to travel from the EU to Syria / Iraq.

You are taking a western centric view. Yes western intervention in the Middle East has made a significant contribution to the motives of terrorists but in blaming it all on the west you deny the ability of people from Middle East to find causes to motivate terrorism all of their own. Unlike people from just about everywhere else.

WTF how many times have muslim terrorists attacked Brazil in the last forever.

Again I don't know what point you think you are making.

It was actually pretty objective. The immigrants that have come over to my country have been proven to be a net negative, economically speaking. There is no shame in that. That specific article was mostly interesting because;
the discussion around the current stream of immigration was often influenced by people saying that all these rocket scientist, surgeons and other highly skilled labor forces would be a huge plus for our economy
it was published in a paper that is rather pro immigrants and not some right wing tabloid

I'd rather invest all that foreign aid/development money in a stable environment close to their own homes so they can feel safe in a culture that is similar to theirs, close to their families and have a chance to return once the region has stabilized. A solution that is much more humane then the one you seem to have in mind. Fwiw, the aggression has been around for over a thousand years, it was just focused internally previously instead.

The best thing however is how your reply is way more western centric then mine and you seem to be completely clueless about it.

.

Whatever dude.

Wrong answer dude. You are supposed to link an article in swedish that has nothing to do with your point or one that was originally posted on a national front website.

For example, what time period are the a drain for? I can 100% guarantee refugees are a losing transaction over a 90 day timeframe. Compelling evidence.

Do you even understand anything about the social systems in place in most european countries ? Would you be able to play devils advocate and think of a reason why exactly they are a net economic loss ? Do you have a clue what % of them have a job after 12 years (one of the actual metrics) ? Do you understand that even when they get a job, on average they will be paying very little to no taxes and have very little spendable income ? I'm sorry if I squashed your dream but its very simple, its mostly charity and that is fine for a lot of people.

Its people like you who get their hopes up, make them pay thousands of euro's to get on a sinking raft commandeered by human trafficking gangs. Make them leave their family for a situation that is close to hopeless in an environment completely strange to them. Just so you can show how awesomely humane you are while in fact you have the blood on your hands of thousands of refugees who are on the bottom of the sea while the trafficking gangs make the best money they've ever made.

In the case of refugees it doesn't ****ing matter whether they are an economic net negative or not. Signatories to the UN Convention on the Status of Refugees have an obligation to accept refugees until such time as it is safe for their return.

There is an entirely different discussion to be had on economic immigration.

I still agree, I'm just saying that a lot of people supporting the 'no borders'/open borders policy used it to create support for the refugee situation. A point that does matter is that a lot of the refugees are in fact that, economic immigrants coming from places like for example Kosovo or Albania (around 20% of the refugees were from Syria so far).