Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Politics version 7.0 more politics.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-13-2017, 04:05 PM   #151
LadyAce
newbie
 
LadyAce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 18
Re: socialism has never worked?

Has socialism ever worked in a multicultural society like America?
LadyAce is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:42 PM   #152
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 22,800
Re: socialism has never worked?

Sure, though usually when people say "multicultural" what they mean to say is that socialism or left wing economic theory isn't politically viable in America, not that socialism, democratic socialism, etc doesn't actually work. It's a nifty workaround for the inconvenient fact that democratic socialism, etc many times have better economic indicators (more patents, more entrepreneurship, higher wages, more economic dynamism, etc.) than what laisse faire capitalism returns.

In other words, even if America is too racist (or multicultural) to enact socialism, that doesn't mean socialism doesn't work. And is, in fact, a good reason for everyone to start advocating it to overcome that multicultural "fear".

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 05-13-2017 at 09:02 PM.
Huehuecoyotl is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 10:52 PM   #153
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,788
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyAce View Post
Has socialism ever worked in a multicultural society like America?
It's never worked anywhere. How could it possibly work in the US?
Black Peter is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 10:58 PM   #154
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 22,800
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
I wonder how these capitalism-haters get their message across without using the benefits of capitalism (computers, internet, etc.)? And don't give me this **** about who invented these things... the products that you're using right now are there because some company decided it was profitable to provide them. And you paid for it. Or more likely, your govt paid for it, along with all the other things you mooch.

lolz

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 05-13-2017 at 11:10 PM.
Huehuecoyotl is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 10:28 AM   #155
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,788
Re: socialism has never worked?

Not even close, but nice try.

Black Peter is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 10:30 AM   #156
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,788
Re: socialism has never worked?

Black Peter is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 10:44 AM   #157
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
Sure, though usually when people say "multicultural" what they mean to say is that socialism or left wing economic theory isn't politically viable in America, not that socialism, democratic socialism, etc doesn't actually work. It's a nifty workaround for the inconvenient fact that democratic socialism, etc many times have better economic indicators (more patents, more entrepreneurship, higher wages, more economic dynamism, etc.) than what laisse faire capitalism returns.

In other words, even if America is too racist (or multicultural) to enact socialism, that doesn't mean socialism doesn't work. And is, in fact, a good reason for everyone to start advocating it to overcome that multicultural "fear".
What inventions have been created under socialism? Do you have examples?
leavesofliberty is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 02:33 PM   #158
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 22,800
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
What inventions have been created under socialism? Do you have examples?
Quote:
You see, the cynical naysers of the Nordics have a very big problem on their hands. Actual measurable economic indicators show the Nordics, for at least 50+ years now, ripping through the convenient story US right-wingers like to tell about growth. Despite doubling (relative to the US) all the stuff right-wingers constantly tell us is going to kill growth (welfare and taxes), the Nordics defiantly grow as fast as the US, and this is true even for the Nordics that aren't called Norway.

To deal with this uncomfortable fact, the right-wing therefore has to shift arguments. They can't say these policies kill growth even though that's what they've been predicting all along because, well, they don't. So instead, they have changed to saying that, though the Nordic model destroys growth-boosting innovation, they manage to grow despite that by stealing all the innovations of the magnificent United States of America.
Quote:
On the hard economic indicators that they assured us could not go the way they have gone in the Nordics, they have lost. But on mushy underdefined amorphous concepts like "innovation," they can, precisely due to its imprecision, feel comfortable acting like they've made some point here.

And it hardly matters what you do about that point. You can show, as many have, that the Nordics have higher start-up rates than the US. You can show, as many have, that the Nordics have higher business R&D than the US. You can show that they have higher levels of venture capital than the US. You can show that they have higher numbers of international triadic patents (patents that, because they are filed in the EU, US, and Japan, are not skewed by the unique American phenomenon of patent trolling rent-seekers). You can go through global innovation indexes that rank them at the same level as the US (some slightly above, some slightly below).
You can read further down if you want some annodotal evidence, the Nordic music industry is the most advanced, they have several successful Internet companies and game studios, 5G cell technology before the US, Android phone technology came from the Nordics, etc

http://www.demos.org/blog/6/9/15/nor...mbie-arguments

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 05-14-2017 at 02:42 PM.
Huehuecoyotl is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 02:41 PM   #159
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,788
Re: socialism has never worked?

Norway is not socialism. And they have tons of natural resources with a small population. Almost any form of non-corrupt govt would work there.
Black Peter is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 03:51 PM   #160
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: socialism has never worked?

Music is cool, but you know what? My car still drives w/o it. It's kind of a disconnect when I'm talking about inventions, and you're talking about Norway's music industry.
leavesofliberty is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 05:51 PM   #161
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 22,800
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Music is cool, but you know what? My car still drives w/o it. It's kind of a disconnect when I'm talking about inventions, and you're talking about Norway's music industry.
The whole article is about zombie arguments. First would be that high taxes and a welfare state would slow growth. Turns out that's not true. So then it moves on to more nebulous concepts like 'inventiveness', but, it turns out, the Nordic countries also do very well in whatever metrics can be used to marshal the idea of 'inventiveness' as well.

So now we're reduced to saying, I guess, that the Nordic are doing the wrong kind of inventiveness? Maybe?
Huehuecoyotl is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 05:52 PM   #162
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 22,800
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
Norway is not socialism. And they have tons of natural resources with a small population. Almost any form of non-corrupt govt would work there.
It's about Nordic counties, not just Norway.
Huehuecoyotl is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 07:47 PM   #163
Regret$
burnt out
 
Regret$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,431
Re: socialism has never worked?

Does capitalism work in dense countries with low natural resources? What is this mythic scale by which 'socialism' has never succeeded but 'capitalism' always has? Rose colored glasses much?
Regret$ is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 07:51 PM   #164
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,788
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
It's about Nordic counties, not just Norway.
None of them are socialism.
Black Peter is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 09:07 PM   #165
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 22,800
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
None of them are socialism.
Sure, if that's your prerogative. Call them Democratic socialist, push to enact programs similar to what they have and then go a bit further eventually.
Huehuecoyotl is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 01:54 AM   #166
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regret$ View Post
Does capitalism work in dense countries with low natural resources? What is this mythic scale by which 'socialism' has never succeeded but 'capitalism' always has? Rose colored glasses much?
You mean like Hong Kong?
leavesofliberty is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 01:56 AM   #167
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
The whole article is about zombie arguments. First would be that high taxes and a welfare state would slow growth. Turns out that's not true. So then it moves on to more nebulous concepts like 'inventiveness', but, it turns out, the Nordic countries also do very well in whatever metrics can be used to marshal the idea of 'inventiveness' as well.

So now we're reduced to saying, I guess, that the Nordic are doing the wrong kind of inventiveness? Maybe?
What I am saying is that socialists have never made a good car, or invented anything useful, except for perhaps Linux, which is pretty good. And even that, Linux is traded on the stock exchange. Linux is the only thing I can think of anyway.
leavesofliberty is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 02:57 AM   #168
HawaiiSurf
banned
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 47
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
I'm a fan of regulated capitalism. But that doesn't mean it's perfect.
It is not perfect because it is regulated. And when it is regulated it is not capitalism.

Our founding fathers would disagree with you on regulated capitalism.

“I place economy among the first and most important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers to be feared. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. If we run into such debts, we must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts, in our labor and in our amusements.” - Thomas Jefferson

“If we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy.” - Thomas Jefferson

“All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in the Constitution or Confederation, not from a want of honor or virtue so much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.” -John Adams
HawaiiSurf is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 04:25 AM   #169
spewmachine
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 277
Re: socialism has never worked?

oh god, my head hurts reading some replies in this thread.

Unregulated capitalism is the idea that lead to the crisis of 2008, a free market can implode much more easily than a regulated one.
spewmachine is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 07:00 AM   #170
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,788
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiiSurf View Post
It is not perfect because it is regulated. And when it is regulated it is not capitalism.

Our founding fathers would disagree with you on regulated capitalism.

“I place economy among the first and most important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers to be feared. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. If we run into such debts, we must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts, in our labor and in our amusements.” - Thomas Jefferson

“If we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy.” - Thomas Jefferson

“All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in the Constitution or Confederation, not from a want of honor or virtue so much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.” -John Adams
The Founding Fathers also disagree with me on slavery, voting rights for women, treatment of native Americans, etc. I'm sure you'd love to go back to the "good old days", but those good old days were only good for rich white males.
Black Peter is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 07:02 AM   #171
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,788
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
Sure, if that's your prerogative. Call them Democratic socialist, push to enact programs similar to what they have and then go a bit further eventually.
Your entire argument is fallacious. You're using countries that are not socialist as an "example" of how great socialism is.
Black Peter is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 08:30 AM   #172
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,788
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
You mean like Hong Kong?
Hong Kong is not a country.

Like Singapore, it employs a system of heavily regulated capitalism with extensive social programs and welfare. I'm glad to see that you're a fan of social programs and welfare.

While neither place has very many natural resources, they are both located in shipping lanes and have huge ports that have brought in vast amounts of foreign money. Both are also huge shopping centers for other Asian tourists.
Black Peter is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 08:30 AM   #173
bahbahmickey
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: UTG-3
Posts: 8,776
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spewmachine View Post
oh god, my head hurts reading some replies in this thread.

Unregulated capitalism is the idea that lead to the crisis of 2008, a free market can implode much more easily than a regulated one.
Because capitalism doesn't have the PR team that the federal government has your opinion is very popular. However, the majority of blame should lie on government.
bahbahmickey is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 09:00 AM   #174
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
Hong Kong is not a country.

Like Singapore, it employs a system of heavily regulated capitalism with extensive social programs and welfare. I'm glad to see that you're a fan of social programs and welfare.

While neither place has very many natural resources, they are both located in shipping lanes and have huge ports that have brought in vast amounts of foreign money. Both are also huge shopping centers for other Asian tourists.
Nice try, but Hong Kong was largely independent and unregulated before being handed over to the Chinese.
leavesofliberty is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 09:04 AM   #175
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spewmachine View Post
oh god, my head hurts reading some replies in this thread.

Unregulated capitalism is the idea that lead to the crisis of 2008, a free market can implode much more easily than a regulated one.
Lol, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, for example, was due to the gov't, and populists like Todd and Frank who floated the idea of home ownership being a right. Not to mention low interest rates from the FED. Black Peter's heavily regulated welfare capitalism hard at work.
leavesofliberty is offline  

 
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online