So, really, wtf is it w/ Greece? - Politics version 7.0 -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

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So, really, wtf is it w/ Greece?

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01-26-2015 , 11:34 PM

Howard Beale

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Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 22,190

BBC article.

"Nobody believes that the Greek debt is sustainable," Euclid Tsakalotos said…..(blah, blah, etc…….)……….But Mr Tskalotos stressed that it would be "my worst nightmare if the eurozone collapses because Greece falls".

Having no idea about how economics works I sometimes console myself w/ the reflection that some very smart people say nobody else does either. However, some of you people claim that you do. My question is in the thread title:

'Wtf is it w/ Greece?'

01-26-2015 , 11:40 PM

Anacardo

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They're being completely ****ing awesome?

The rise of Syriza is the most promising (seeming! for now!) development in world politics since, ****, ID even K how long come to think of it.

They're left-leaning so my enthusiasm will probably not be shared on 2+2 politics, but, Jesus Christ, when your options are Goldman Sachs greyfaces, Neo-Nazis, or whatever's in the box with the question mark over there, I'm pretty sure you pick the box and feel great about it.

01-26-2015 , 11:41 PM

Anacardo

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lol BBC

Cameron's #mad. Nothing could please me more.

01-27-2015 , 02:58 AM

Deuces McKracken

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What is happening with Greece is really interesting when put terms of the war between modern states and democratic forces. One of the goals of many transnational institutions (of which the EU is one) is to raise the level of planning away from certain groups and away from democratic control generally.

So here we have a standoff. It's a modern classic: of people vs. a transnational economic entity, of poor vs. rich, of austerity vs. **** austerity, and of independence vs. hegemony (Germany, not the U.S. for once). It's popcorn time.

01-27-2015 , 09:10 AM

A_C_Slater

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Greece has a population of only 10.8 million which is about as much as the state of Georgia, I have no idea why they receive so much media attention.

01-27-2015 , 11:10 AM

Mr.mmmKay

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i've heard they've gone full communism

01-27-2015 , 11:35 AM

jjshabado

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I haven't followed the economic arguments in a lot of detail, but at first glance it seems kind of ridiculous to make demands of people that are giving you a ton of free/cheap money.

01-27-2015 , 02:28 PM

Anacardo

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http://21stcenturywire.com/2015/01/2...or-terrorists/

LOOOOOOOOOL

That was fast! This is how you know the finance fascists are scurrrrred.

01-27-2015 , 03:13 PM

stockguy3205

grinder

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 621

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

Cliffs:
Borrowed money to prevent national bankruptcy, money was loaned to them with certain conditions attached (ie stop so much govt spending and cut back your budget), Grecians want their big government, Greece refuses to repay under said stipulations of 5 years ago

They are probably going to go bankrupt as a country.

Anacardo rejoices

Howard - the link below gives a good summary

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/46024875.cms

01-27-2015 , 04:20 PM

#10

problemeliminator

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There's also the fact that the loans were made with the promise that they would cure the economy. Look at the predictions from the Trioka back when these deals were made. Greece did what the Trioka wanted and has gotten a depression with no signs of abating to show for it. But I'm sure a little more austerity will fix it.

01-27-2015 , 04:27 PM

#11

jjshabado

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What's the solution then? Is it just to screw the creditors? Seems like that solution is even worse (and not because the creditors get screwed - that's a natural risk of the loans they made).

01-27-2015 , 04:33 PM

#12

problemeliminator

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Well Syriza in the 2012 election was saying they would default on the loans. Now they're saying they want to renegotiate them.

01-27-2015 , 04:45 PM

#13

jjshabado

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I get what the magical solution from a Grecian's perspective is. It's to get the creditors to forgive a bunch of your loans and give you really great terms for the future.

But that doesn't seem likely and/or possible.

01-27-2015 , 04:50 PM

#14

problemeliminator

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Do you think that the ECB etc are going to say, in essence, "Either pay what we the previous government agreed or default"?

01-27-2015 , 05:03 PM

#15

Howard Beale

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Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 22,190

What I'm really curious about is how such a relatively small economy w/ a debt that isn't really all that huge has the potential to blow up the Eurozone and everything else along w/ it.

01-27-2015 , 05:04 PM

#16

Anacardo

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Because the bankers' apparatachiks have nothing to offer to justify themselves, just fear and totalitarianism?

01-27-2015 , 05:06 PM

#17

PoundingTheUnder

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they should go back to the drachma now. best thing that ever happened to turkey was not being allowed in the EU.

01-27-2015 , 05:19 PM

#18

jjshabado

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Quote:

Originally Posted by problemeliminator

Do you think that the ECB etc are going to say, in essence, "Either pay what we the previous government agreed or default"?

It sounds like they won't negotiate very much at all due to the precedent it'll set.

And its not just about the loans they've made, it's about terms for future money coming in as well.

01-27-2015 , 05:51 PM

#19

kioshk

Nixonian

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Their hedonistic culture and warm sunny weather breeds a certain licentiousness and sense of entitlement.

01-27-2015 , 05:52 PM

#20

stockguy3205

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

What I'm really curious about is how such a relatively small economy w/ a debt that isn't really all that huge has the potential to blow up the Eurozone and everything else along w/ it.

Howard - the article below should answer your question

Quote:

The worst-case scenario envisions governments defaulting on their debts, a run on European banks and a worldwide credit crunch reminiscent of the financial crisis in the fall of 2008.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.s..._euro_mig.html

01-27-2015 , 06:49 PM

#21

Deuces McKracken

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Quote:

Originally Posted by A_C_Slater

Greece has a population of only 10.8 million which is about as much as the state of Georgia, I have no idea why they receive so much media attention.

This is kind of like asking why any standoff between a small entity and a large one receives so much attention. This is a critical test case of an important power dynamic with global implications. It's like way more important than when Cliven Bundy refused to give up some horses.

01-27-2015 , 06:50 PM

#22

Deuces McKracken

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kioshk

Their hedonistic culture and warm sunny weather breeds a certain licentiousness and sense of entitlement.

hahaha

There is derp and then there is quality derp. That sir, is quality.

01-27-2015 , 06:54 PM

#23

jmakin

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Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 30,120

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deuces McKracken

hahaha

There is derp and then there is quality derp. That sir, is quality.

good lord, seriously

01-27-2015 , 07:24 PM

#24

Howard Beale

Formerly red

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 22,190

So who came up w/ this Euro idea that's going to blow up the world except for me and my hoard of canned goods, anyway?

01-27-2015 , 07:57 PM

#25

FlyWf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Anacardo

Because the bankers' apparatachiks have nothing to offer to justify themselves, just fear and totalitarianism?

They charge Greece ruinously high interest rates because of fear of default, then move heaven and Earth demanding that Greece not be allowed to default.

...

Then what the **** was the interest rate for?

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