We never had a "good practice/policy"(nor did I say we did), but we had a lot more mental health resources available to the public. State mental institutions have a place.

Just wanted to note that I don't disagree with you but am doubtful that it would ever happen. Too much of our society dismisses any talk of looking at killers as victims or being sick. We're too focused on retribution to think about things like treating them like they're sick. Our judicial system is said to make criminals worse not better.

And politicize this more- my impression is that the right with there thirst for the death penalty and such would dismiss any talk of treating a mentally ill killer as liberal pansy hogwash.

Back to treatment questions- I thought psychopaths literally lacked empathy. (Or am I confusing it with sociopathy?). Do antipsychotics restore empathy?

Too many politicians are afraid to look soft on crime, but are okay with putting 12yos in jail. It's disgusting.

this obviously

Many use the terms interchangeably.

we're not talking about Generic Rambunctious 12 year old here. we're talking about 2 12 year olds who tried to kill one of their friends.

what good would it do to society to lock these 2 up for 65 years? it would ensure that 2 people who showed they have the capacity to carry out a brutal premeditated murder at the age of 12 never kill any1 else. that sounds pretty good to me.

and to the point of "they need mental health treatment".

from the Wisconsin statute re: the psychologist who examines the accused when they enter a plea of not guilty by reason of mental disease:

simply proving the existence of a mental disorder is not enough to get sent to a psych ward rather than to jail. the mental disorder has to limit a person's ability to know the difference between right and wrong.

i assume the disorder you want them hospitalized and treated for is ant-social personality disorder (psychopathy)?

psychopaths understand the difference between right and wrong. when they cheat of their spouse, or steal, or murder some1 they know that its wrong. they just don't care, and do it anyway.

sounds like she knew stabbing her friend was wrong and didn't want to get caught.

sounds like she knew it was wrong too.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/w...261534171.html

Draw none - the ability to know right and wrong May be a bad standard if psychopaths are acting due to a disorder. I agree if they cannot be treated that some form of incarceration is best. But if they can be treated and, under treatment would not act the same way, they lifetime carceration would not be best. I say this without really knowing if treatment is realistic.

Varies alot from State to State or even County to County.

The ability to know right from wrong is what society goes by, sufferers of this particular illness receive little sympathy for their "woes" of having no conscience. At this date, according Hare et al. there is no effective treatment, there is no cure. Incarceration is best if they commit crimes and are caught, but they have lawyers like anyone else, and probably won't do a longer sentence than any other offender caught for a similar crime. Incarceration is not possible for non-criminal (or "successful") psychopaths, they've decided not to commit crimes, so even if they were brought to the law's attention, they can't be arrested if they're not committing crimes. (That's not to say that non-criminal psychopaths don't break social norms and mores, break hearts, wreck lives, and generally act like douchebags. They're just not quite arrestable.)

Let's all slow down.

First, stop with the psychopathic garbage. A 12 year old doesn't get personality disorder diagnoses for good reason; they're 12. That's possibly not even pubescent, nevermind adult.

Secondly, as it relates, stop calling for adult sentencing. Again, 12 years old. First response to the OP is spot on.

Lastly, while not covered by most insurance plans due primarily to the length of treatment, there are evidence based treatments for APD, both the sociopathic and psychopathic varieties. I've been told that Motivational Interviewing skills is huge in gaining buy in from these patients. Again, though, these girls are 12, and they are far from having formed personalities, nevermind personality disorders.

i think its important to point out the reality is not "people with anti-social personality disorder commit crimes because of their disorder."

its "people with ASPD are more likely to commit crimes b/ they cannot empathize with others."

IMO both treatments create a catch-22 for criminal psychopaths.

Counseling-two of the traits of a psychopath are the ability to lie as easily as they breathe, and understanding what a person wants to hear. how does a therapist making the decision to release a psychopath know the "progress" the patient appears to be making is real?

Anti-psychotic drugs-the only way to guarantee they're taking the drugs is if they're in custody. say the drugs are working (with severe physical and mental side effects) and the person is deemed "treated" and released with the condition they stay on the medication. when/if they decide they dont want to feel like a zombie and stop taking the medication would you expect them to show up at the probation office to fail the blood test and quietly go back to jail?

They're probably conning the people giving the treatment.

Well said

that's not exactly true

You are very knowledgable about treating people with personality disorders. The well informed and carefully considered statement quoted above clearly indicates your expertise.

Let me just pussy out now like a cowering bit*h and defer to your judgment.

Regardless, that's for medical professionals to decide, not some dumbass DA.

Did you read the article? Dr. Dude deciding you're at risk of becoming something doesn't mean you suddenly have become it. So yes, it is exactly true...a 12 year old is not a psychopath, as 12 year olds are still very much in the process of developing a personality.

Not at all. But Robert Hare is, and all it took was Google to find some of what he has to say about it:

So according to Hare, one of the world's foremost experts, there is no outcome data from programs specifically designed for psychopaths, but he and his colleagues are not about to give up just because nothing has worked thus far. I wonder whose word I should take, yours, or his?

Clearly you're well informed! You watch Dexter and use Google, hence know that those with ASPD are manipulative, which obv means treatment is completely futile because they'll just con the clinician. I mean duh dudes! We've also learned that sociopathy and psychopathy are often (correctly, doc?) used interchangeably.

But I forget, being the dumb little pussy b***h that I am, should we be diagnosing these twelve year olds as sociopaths and psychopaths in the first place? Like, is this conversation relevant?

Going to bed cuz I'm a pussy and can't keep my eyes open. Fantastic stuff in the forum today, just A+ work all around.

Well he says in the quotes I just posted that polio was once thought to be untreatable, until it wasn't. That's the philosophy he's taking wrt the treatment of psychopaths. It's like you didn't even read the quotes. Yes, they're often used interchangeably. It depends what field of study you're coming from. Type "psychopathy" in wikipedia, guess what it says: psychopathy (or sociopathy).

Never thought i'd say this but DudeImBetter is crushing itt

This seems quite similar to the famous Parker–Hulme murder. There, two teenage girls had retreated into a fantasy world and ended up conspiring to murder one of the girl's mothers. They were both released after five years - one went on to become a successful novelist. The Peter Jackson film 'Heavenly Creatures' is based on this case.

Prison for life imo. 12 is old enough, they planned out for months in advance a thrill murder. **** em, and let them rot in prison for rest of their lives or at least 30 years. When I was 10 I was really into Pokemon, and, as best as I can remember, at least 7 years removed from ever actually believing Pokemon were real.

And jail in life at least for the psychopath one, I would def prefer that over someone else actually getting killed by a successful second attempt

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i do agree with prison for life.