Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
And this is why I hesitate to use the term "SJW", because I feel it's inherently too broad and easily misunderstood, preferring instead more specific terms like illiberal left or the loud crazy online social justice crowd, etc., etc., but I must admit, the term social justice warrior has a certain ironic quality and poetic flow to it, so it's no wonder it has legs, and I don't expect it to fade into obscurity anytime soon... at least as long as many of those it describes continue to act in the ways described here.
Yes, and I've been asking you to further disambiguate them. The loud crazy online social justice crowd are not being illiberal when they get offended over non-bigoted statements or pictures. They might be wrong, but being wrong isn't illiberal. If they claim that the state should ban racist pictures, then they are being illiberal. You can argue about penumbra cases where people's free speech comes in conflict. But liberalism doesn't have any anti-shaming rule to it. Suggesting that it does weakens the case for liberalism as it causes people on both the left and right who want to use shame to motivate their preferred moral systems to oppose liberalism for that reason.
Be clear about this. Shaming people is allowed in liberal societies. Many liberals enjoy tolerant and diverse cultures, and so associate liberalism with those values. But liberalism can be a way of managing homogeneous and high shame societies as well. For instance, Japan abolished their
lese majeste laws in 1947, and today has
perhaps the most thriving newspaper culture in the world. However, the shame-based social norms governing reporting or conversation about the Emperor are still very strong and still govern how people talk and write about the Imperial Family. That's fine. As long as the government isn't intervening, and is preserving the right of people to object to these norms, then liberals concerned about free speech can be satisfied. They can object to those norms on the basis of their
other values, but that isn't a matter of liberalism.
Quote:
True, however, you can expect your newish take on morality to be challenged at every turn due to the subjective nature of such things.... e.g., why are left-wing liberal moral values better than right-wing conservative's, or libertarian's, etc? And so attempts to convince provide more substantial progress than clear bullying tactics, for obvious reasons*, and as I'm sure you know well, even if you can make your case clearly and convincingly it will still be a tough go due to simple inertia, so a certain measure of patience and steadfast resolve is required as well as perspective.
*actually, I'm not sure the reasons are obvious to some people.
Yeah, they aren't obvious to me either. However, I still think bullying is wrong and bullies should stop bullying other people.