The SJW thread - Page 95 - Politics version 7.0 -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

One of the major issues neuroscience faces is that there is no such thing as a brain in its natural state. All brains which can be examined are tainted by experience and environment. And this goes right down to hormone levels foetuses are exposed to in the womb.

One example of this is in feral children, or seriously neglected children, that don't develop a language. When you look at a brain scan you find that they have less developed areas associated with language. That is, the environment and culture (or lack thereof) they developed in has permanently changed the physical development and structure of the brain.

Now this creates a whole host of problems when examining differences in the sexes, because even when you find differences you might not have any hope of determining whether it's a physical difference independent of culture. But there are indicators which can predict the sex of a person based on brains. Unfortunately, they aren't highly accurate because individuals have huge variability.

You then have all this trouble that we can change people's moods and behaviour patterns by playing with hormone levels, and we know that the sexes have different hormone levels. But then we know that your environment and conditioning also affects your hormones.

You also get the old cases, there was a good documentary on this that I might be able to find for anyone interested, on intersex people in the UK. A few decades back, the prevailing theory was nurture>nature, so the doctors told parents of intersex kids: raise them as what you want. A couple of cases had kids who had serious accidents or illness where they lost their penis and so the parents and doctors figured "raise him as a her then". Turns out, many of those kids grew up to be horrendously uncomfortable with their designated gender, leading people to think "Ah, it's not nurture at all then".

But if it's not nurture at all then we run into a bunch of problems about how what it means to be a man or woman varies massively over time and space. And with specific regards to trans people, you get interesting things like this: when you look at biological males who lose their penises (due to accident or cancer or whatever) you get huge rates of phantom pain. When you look at trans people who have surgery, you get much much lower rates. So there's reason to think being trans has a biological basis.

The best guess is that human personality traits have a biological basis which is massively affected by environment and usually not in an obviously reductive way. We can't do a Freud and say "his mother hugged him too much or not enough". All we can say is that it's some mix of both and we can't easily tell which way or how.

The MOST important thing is that it turns out that not letting trans people express their preferred gender has staggeringly awful effects. Helping them to transition, on the other hand, and increasing societal acceptance, relieves their suffering. Trans people aren't delusional. They don't look at their chest or crotch and see something other than what is (the way an anorexic might really believe they're fat, or a schizophrenic really believes the voices are real). They just don't see what they want; what would make them comfortable.

To try to reduce this down to "It's all biology" or "It's all culture" is a binary which I don't think anyone credible buys into.

About where the bold ends, my eyes crossed and glazed over and I started chanting, "maga MAGA MAGA"

08-11-2017 , 07:00 PM

#2352

augie_

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Shame Trolly !!!1!

So you mean anti-capitalists only? So you are not referring to pro-capitalists like the Librulz & Donkeys & Elephants at all?

i'm new to this forum, i'm not familiar with your shtick, is writing like an 11 year old girl a debate tactic?

there's a lot of overlap between people's economic and social policies so i can't use any of the labels you've provided as they're completely meaningless in today's political climate. i've already been called a radical right winger in this thread when the truth is i'm nowhere near that.

Quote:

Dude, you're in the wrong place.

There are almost -zero- anti-capitalists or "radical left" here in Los Dos Politards. Besides, as I previously mentioned, basically nobody believes that "chicks & dudes brains are exactly the same". I'd guesstimate that only about 0.1% of peeps hold that view, say 350k. Of that 350k, I'd guess only about 0.1% are anti-capitalists or "radical left", so maybe 350 peeps in the whole country.

What made you imagine or think one or more of those maybe 350 peeps hang out in an obscure OT forum on a poker website ?

i'm glad to hear that! but i think there are more here than you think.

also, unfortunately, many people often support or endorse these and other bad ideas accidentally, because they support politicians or public features who do support the idea.

08-11-2017 , 07:03 PM

#2353

augie_

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bladesman87

You seem to be arguing against a lot of things nobody here appears to be claiming. So either this place isn't mainstream and you should look for people elsewhere, or you're misjudging what is mainstream because the world is now full of blogs on every topic.

again, glad to hear this, but hopefully people voting for democrats will learn more about the positions their candidates actually hold or refuse to disavow. because you might support these ideas accidentally.

08-11-2017 , 07:04 PM

#2354

master3004

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Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 56,419

Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

this is not true and is basically the only reason i bother speaking up on this. transgender people have a 40% lifetime suicide rate whether they transition or not. in some cases, transitioning makes it worse, as the suicide rate goes up for those who transition but are not "passable."

you say they aren't delusional and then go on to explain exactly how they are delusional. at the very least, if you don't grant that these folks have gender dysphoria, transgenderism is HIGHLY linked with mental illness. insanely high rates of depression and a 40% suicide rate.
.

I'm sorry, do you have a source for this? Particularly the bolded

08-11-2017 , 07:04 PM

#2355

spanktehbadwookie

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 6ix

About where the bold ends, my eyes crossed and glazed over and I started chanting, "maga MAGA MAGA"

Yeah. But the smarter among them know they ain't even fooling all the judges all of the time. The leftist plot story line is pretty wild. Bannonist leftism.

08-11-2017 , 07:05 PM

#2356

master3004

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Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

because radical leftist views are becoming mainstream while radical right wing views are not.

Source please

08-11-2017 , 07:08 PM

#2357

6ix

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Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

because radical leftist views are becoming mainstream while radical right wing views are not.

The Vice President wants to throw LGBTQ+ people into the ocean, and the President is literally the dude Fat Hitlerism was named after, but yeah, other than that the story checks out.

08-11-2017 , 07:10 PM

#2358

6ix

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Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 4,783

Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

...

i've already been called a radical right winger in this thread when the truth is i'm nowhere near that.

...

How would you know?

08-11-2017 , 07:10 PM

#2359

13ball

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This just seems to be RADICAL LEFT panic--Straw-manning what liberals believe and worrying about brain science and bathrooms while the radical right bombs mosques.

08-11-2017 , 07:13 PM

#2360

master3004

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Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 56,419

Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

i'm new to this forum, i'm not familiar with your shtick, is writing like an 11 year old girl a debate tactic?

Is using undefined, vaugue terms like "new left" a debate tactic of yours

08-11-2017 , 07:14 PM

#2361

spanktehbadwookie

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The 'radical right' wants to use conversion behavior on lgbtq+ people based on ideological things like beliefs about chromosomes.

08-11-2017 , 07:23 PM

#2362

master3004

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Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

Which candidates that have been elected to federal government are you most worried about? Do you apply the same kind of worry to those republican elected officials who have far right views?

08-11-2017 , 07:34 PM

#2363

Shame Trolly !!!1!

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Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

... there's a lot of overlap between people's economic and social policies so i can't use any of the labels you've provided as they're completely meaningless in today's political climate...

But you did. The term you started out with was "leftist". Then you further qualified with "extreme left of the political spectrum" and "radical left". Those are all points along the economic continuum. Those are your labels, not mine.

So... let me get this straight. When you say "leftist" you aren't referencing the traditional USA economic right-left continuum at all ?

?

So, in this new flanged lingo... as you use it... an anti-capitalist can be a "Leftist" or a "Rightist". A Librulz can be a "Leftist" or a "Rightist". A centrist can be a "Leftist" or a "Rightist". A conservative can be a "Leftist" or a "Rightist". And, of course, a neo-fascist can be a "Leftist" or a "Rightist".

Arimite ?

08-11-2017 , 07:39 PM

#2364

Bladesman87

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Quote:

Originally Posted by master3004

I'm sorry, do you have a source for this? Particularly the bolded

Just to preempt this one, there's a bunch of news articles you can find on this, but I'm pretty sure where the source will lead, and I'm almost certain the answer is what I gave him (they compared transitioned trans to cisgender individuals, and not transitioned trans to non-transitioned trans).

08-11-2017 , 07:40 PM

#2365

augie_

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Quote:

Originally Posted by master3004

I'm sorry, do you have a source for this? Particularly the bolded

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...port-Final.pdf

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mpts/31626633/

08-11-2017 , 07:45 PM

#2366

lycosid

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Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

i agree with this, don't want to seem like culture doesn't play a role on how gender is expressed. but it's not the defining factor that the new left tells you it is.

this is not true and is basically the only reason i bother speaking up on this. transgender people have a 40% lifetime suicide rate whether they transition or not. in some cases, transitioning makes it worse, as the suicide rate goes up for those who transition but are not "passable."

you say they aren't delusional and then go on to explain exactly how they are delusional. at the very least, if you don't grant that these folks have gender dysphoria, transgenderism is HIGHLY linked with mental illness. insanely high rates of depression and a 40% suicide rate.

i'm not pretending like trans people can just go see a therapist and everything will be just fine. it's a dark path no matter what they do. but it's not helping them to pretend that gender dysphoria is just a personality quirk and that they are totally normal.

it seems to me like the equivalent of telling someone with multiple personality disorder that it's true that they are actually multiple people inside one body.

Where are you getting your information from? Taking, say, this review of sex reassignment studies it seems overwhelmingly clear that supporting transitioning dramatically improves quality of life for an extremely vulnerable group of humans.

08-11-2017 , 07:49 PM

#2367

Bladesman87

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Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...port-Final.pdf

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mpts/31626633/

Actually, not the one I thought would get referenced, but skimming it:

Quote:

Table 5, respondents who said they had received transitionrelated
health care or wanted to have it someday were
more likely to report having attempted suicide than those
who said they did not want it. This pattern was observed
across all transition-related services and procedures
that were explored in the NTDS. The survey did not
provide information about the timing of reported suicide
attempts in relation to receiving transition-related health
care, which precluded investigation of transition-related
explanations for these patterns

Have I missed something or is that saying this study didn't look into what you're claiming?

08-11-2017 , 07:54 PM

#2368

master3004

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bladesman87

No, I knew that. I wanted to know if he had anything other than that which had already been debunked.

08-11-2017 , 07:54 PM

#2369

lycosid

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Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...port-Final.pdf

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mpts/31626633/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bladesman87

I was writing while you posted this, augie, but it looks like Bladesman saw it coming and responded anyway. That study, and the 40% higher suicide rate that you cited, only compares trans people as a group to the total population. No one in this thread thinks that trans people are going to experience outcomes equal to the general population. They've been so ****ed with by the time they hit high school that its almost out of the question. But supporting trans people, including through hormonal therapy, clearly improves those outcomes. Demonization through strange bathroom bills, and denial of medical and mental health care, don't help. That's really not in dispute, so fighting to tell trans people they are delusional and need to get over it while conservatives fear monger against them seems pretty horrific.

08-11-2017 , 08:03 PM

#2370

augie_

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Quote:

Originally Posted by master3004

Source please

right moving toward center:

there are dozens of republicans who now support socialized healthcare

http://www.newsweek.com/why-are-most...lthcare-584879

half of republicans support same sex marriage

http://www.newsweek.com/same-sex-mar...blicans-629322

left going farther left:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/democra...move-more-left

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/o...democrats.html

http://dailycaller.com/2017/07/31/be...fe-candidates/

i think i'm done googling articles for you, though.

08-11-2017 , 08:16 PM

#2371

Iron Tamer

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http://www.businessinsider.com/james...-google-2017-8

lets talk more about james damore where you idiot leftists who've never read his memo talk about how his firing is 100% justified because of your experience in manufactoring.

Quote:

An expert in California labor law tells Business Insider that Damore has a better chance of winning his case than people may think.
That's because Damore's case is NOT about free speech, discrimination, or his rights as an "at-will" worker.
Damore filed under a section of the law that deals with protecting statements made by workers' rights activists who have questions about wages and conditions.
Google may have difficulty establishing that he broke the company's code of conduct because he used message boards the company provided to allow employees to discuss these issues, and because his manifesto repeatedly states he favors diversity and intended to "increase women's representation in tech."

08-11-2017 , 08:36 PM

#2372

augie_

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lycosid

Quote:

But supporting trans people, including through hormonal therapy, clearly improves those outcomes. Demonization through strange bathroom bills, and denial of medical and mental health care, don't help. That's really not in dispute, so fighting to tell trans people they are delusional and need to get over it while conservatives fear monger against them seems pretty horrific.

it's absolutely in dispute and it's not at all obvious that transitioning is helpful. the data shows that the suicide rate goes up when the trans person is noticed in public and goes down when the trans person is 'passable' and doesn't get noticed. should we tell certain trans people that they might make an ugly dude so they probably shouldn't transition?

another factor is if this becomes widely accepted as normal behavior, parents will start to give their children hormone treatment during adolescence if the child tells them they have gender confusion. children are extremely maliable and sexuality is very foreign and confusing during puberty. this will lead to children receiving hormones when they shouldn't and joining the 40% club instead of living a relatively normal life as gay or straight.

i'm not telling anyone to "get over it." someone very close to me has a serious mental illness. i'm well aware that people can't "get over it." they have to learn to live with it. SJW's and virtue signalers like to pretend they support people with mental health issues but i've experienced it first hand. when mental illness rears it's head, everyone except the family and VERY good friends quickly fade away.

but the transgender person also has a million virtue signalers online telling that person they're totally normal and they should absolutely cut their dick off when the real data shows that it's not clear at all it's a good idea. and then people like me get labeled "conservative fear mongers." it's pretty annoying!

08-11-2017 , 08:49 PM

#2373

spanktehbadwookie

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Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

amazing. the study is not valid because it's comparing trans population to the general population. would you prefer if they compared the trans population to a population of penguins?

the bullying explanation doesn't hold water and you know it. it's frustrating to encounter such an obvious lie. you damn well know bullying doesn't account for that kind of increase in suicide. gay people cite lots of bullying, their suicide rate is much lower than the trans suicide rate. that's because being gay is a preference, a quirk. being transgender is a confusion about your own identity, much more obviously a negative condition.

it's absolutely in dispute and it's not at all obvious that transitioning is helpful. the data shows that the suicide rate goes up when the trans person is noticed in public and goes down when the trans person is 'passable' and doesn't get noticed. should we tell certain trans people that they might make an ugly dude so they probably shouldn't transition?

another factor is if this becomes widely accepted as normal behavior, parents will start to give their children hormone treatment during adolescence if the child tells them they have gender confusion. children are extremely maliable and sexuality is very foreign and confusing during puberty. this will lead to children receiving hormones when they shouldn't and joining the 40% club instead of living a relatively normal life as gay or straight.

i'm not telling anyone to "get over it." someone very close to me has a serious mental illness. i'm well aware that people can't "get over it." they have to learn to live with it. SJW's and virtue signalers like to pretend they support people with mental health issues but i've experienced it first hand. when mental illness rears it's head, everyone except the family and VERY good friends quickly fade away.

but the transgender person also has a million virtue signalers online telling that person they're totally normal and they should absolutely cut their dick off when the real data shows that it's not clear at all it's a good idea. and then people like me get labeled "conservative fear mongers." it's pretty annoying!

You have your rationales to grab all laid out.

08-11-2017 , 08:52 PM

#2374

spanktehbadwookie

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What a miserable neighbor who thinks they are in charge of everyone's gender and even minds personal relationships and calls supportive people 'signalers'. That's ideology coming to visit you and mind.